SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Sister Cinema Swap, the podcast where two sisters work through their backlogs of movies they haven't seen. I'm Kate Kabala.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

And I'm Emily Bateman. And I finally watched Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. It does not roll off the tongue.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

It does not. You did a good job, though. I definitely it definitely it's one of those where I'm like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I was worried also that it was a spotless mind, so I had to like look it up and it's like it's the it's the it is the, yes. Yeah, I feel like this is the longest title we've gotten so far.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

It really, it really is. Yeah. Um yeah, we are uh yeah, we are talking about 2004's Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Um and the 2000s. I know the the early to mid-2000s. Early odds. Yeah, what a good era. Good era of God, music, horrible fashion, insane websites. Yeah, it's the amount the amount of times I've seen things from this era labeled as vintage. I'm like, I'm 90 years old. What is happening?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Vintage Charlotte Roos, vintage. Um I saw a video of a girl.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, I was up.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, or or it was um those uh those comb headband things. I remember seeing a girl say, Oh my god. This is how they use these, I think in the olden days. And I was like, oh the oh god.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I the other day I was trying to figure out like which thing like like which which verbiage hurt more, and I can't decide if it's antique or vintage. I feel like antique is it hits pretty hard, but like also antique is worse. Also thinking about like our outfits as vintage. Yes, it's bonkers. It yeah, I that's a whole that's a whole separate podcast of the early 2000s nostalgia.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Oh my god, we could do that as like uh if we ever did Patreon or something. Oh my god, that'd be so fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Y'all tell us what you want as bonus episodes. Tell us if you want to hear us talk about stuff. Like it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

That's not this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, that's not just these specific movies. Um, but yeah, we are talking about 2004's Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Um, Emily, how'd you miss this movie?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So, since it came out in 2004, this is not an excuse, but I was not old enough to see it. 2004. What was happening? Was I going uh you were a junior, right? Uh yep. Junior. Okay, so I would have been a freshman in in high school, so I would have been 14. But also, the only thing I've ever heard about this movie is that it was sad. And so I'm not gonna go watch a sad movie of my own volition. Um, nobody's ever tried to convince me to watch it too.

unknown 3:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I feel like this is like an indie movie that like people would push on people, you know? It just to me it has that vibe of like, oh my like kind of like the Big Lebowski where, like, oh my god, you've never seen this. You've gotta see this. Yeah. Never had anyone do that to me. I knew that Jim Carrey, like, oh, serious actor, you know, really cool. Um I had no idea that Kate Winslit was in it for a long time. Because the poster does not show her as clearly. But I remember the poster, them on the ice and everything. Like, I know that poster. Yeah, I know that picture. I only knew from like later on, I don't know if it was like maybe clips on like Instagram or something where it's like, oh, it's Kate Winslit and she has funky colored hair.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

So that was, I don't know, maybe in like the last five years that I realized that about this movie.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

But and I I never saw a trailer for it. Like, I don't know where I would have seen a trailer for it. So I knew really nothing about this movie. I thought it was gonna be, and I mean I haven't seen this either, 500 Days of Summer, which I also feel like is like a sad romance movie or something. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I thought it was gonna be like this, that's like the end. You haven't seen 500 Days of Summer. No, I haven't. It's here's the thing it's not as good. It's fine. I I actually I'll get into that because that's actually a a thing in my okay. There is actually a tangent that I have about that. Um yeah, I I was the same way. I think when this movie came out, I think it was it just wasn't really in my wheelhouse. Like I think I hadn't really picked up on I don't think I'd seen any of like the Jim Carrey dramatic roles at that point. But like he'd already been in the Truman show. He'd already been in um oh god, I looked it up and there were a couple other like more serious roles. Like this is not I was trying to remember like where this was in like him, you know, being cast in that. And this is not the first serious thing that he'd done. Um but this yeah, but this was a movie where like I I had some insufferable hipster friends in college. Um and this is one of those movies where it's like, oh my god, you have to see this. And they and it was the kind of thing where I was like, okay, I saw this movie at one of the 24-hour movie marathons that they did on my college campus. It was one of those, just like you, I remember it being sad. I remember it being one of those movies that I saw, and I was like, oh God, this is like devastating. And then I literally finished watching this last night and I walked out of the room and talked to my husband, and he was like, I thought that movie was a kind of heavy. And I'm like, I think it's sad if you're in a bad relationship.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. Or if you were like if you see yourself in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yes. And I think when I first saw it in maybe 2006 or seven, I don't think I was in a great relationship. And so I think I saw it and was like, oh my god, I understand. And now I'm like, you know, happily married. And I'm like, oh yeah, that this is a bummer, but you know, it's fine. Like I get it.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Um yeah, and I could see how some of it's like relatable to any age, but yeah, it's like this is not, oh man, this this cuts me to my core, and everything that they're saying is me, and I'm so misunderstood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

I think there's I think there's there's the heart of that like early 2000s, like indie hipster, like no one will ever understand me vibe, just like craving heartbreak. It's like, yeah, okay. I I was like that. And I think I saw this movie when I was like that, and it, you know, it worked.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Um and I think a couple years after it came out, too.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, it wasn't too long after it came out. Um, but it was one that I knew like it's it's objectively, it's a really good movie. It is constantly on like top movie lists, it's constantly in like the best hundred of whatever. It's like oh wow. That and that was one of the things. Like, it's been on like so many lists of like this is a great movie. This is a well-done movie. This is this is like worth seeing. It holds up. Like, there's so much about this movie that like, you know, watching it 20 plus years later, it holds up so well.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, it's great for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah. But yeah, I think I definitely think that there's something about it's one of those movies where it depends on not the year that you watch it, but it depends on what's going on in your life when you watch it. It's one of those things where if it finds you and you're sad anyways, you're gonna be like, oh my god, like I feel seen and and you know, understood. And if you watch it, you know, being happily married, you know, 10 plus years into a relationship, you're just like, man, that's a bummer. Okay. It's like, man, I I used to be like that. I'm not now, but okay. So this movie came out in 2004. It uh stars Jim Carrey and Kate Winslit both um cast fully against type. This is not the kinds of movies that they were doing, especially not Kate Winslett. Um, these were both very kind of off-beat pulls for these characters. Um there was a lot of emphasis trying to get someone who was like Oscar nominated, someone who had like a little bit more, or um like an Oscar winner, I think. Like someone who had a little bit more star power for Kate Winslit's role for Clementine. Um Yeah, uh apparently Has she done Titanic already? I yes, she had done Titanic. Yes. Um but the thing with Kate Winslet, the reason that she ended up with this, um, she actually gave some notes on the script um and had some like had some input. And the director was like, Yeah, you're really good. I it's like, hell yeah, let's go. Um but yeah, so like for these two, like it's it's funny that it's so not typically what either of them do because it is now such an iconic like role for both of them. Yeah, like it's crazy. It's such a touchstone. It also stars Kirsten Dunce, Elijah Wood, Mark Ruffalo, and Tom Wilkinson. I forgot I forgot everyone else who was in this movie. I truly it's crazy. I think I have just seen this movie the one time, and then I like remembered, I remembered what happened, and I like knew kind of like. You need to watch this again. Exactly. Yeah, and like rewatching it, I was just like, you know, gets to the the names, and I'm like, God, there are people in this movie. I forgot. I really was like, oh, it's just the two of them. Okay. But yeah, uh, it was directed by Michelle Gondry. He has done a lot of music videos. He uh is a French director. Um, he has directed a ton of music videos. Um, he also dire he directed uh Be Kind Rewind with uh Jack Black Jack Black and Most F.

unknown 9:59

What?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, which I loved. It's a very cute movie. But yeah, the uh so the writers um were Michel Gondry and Pierre Bismuth. He is another uh French filmmaker and uh visual artist. He does a lot of visual art installations. Um and it was the entire movie was actually based on Pierre Bismuth's uh just original concept, which truly was just what if you got a card that said that you had been erased from someone's memory? What and then it all just went from there. Like that was Oh my god. Yeah, that was literally just the basis of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Okay. Why don't they make movies like that anymore?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

You know, it was it was the early 2000s. It was uh at the time it was the 90s. Um it was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Yeah, it sure was. The 90s. Um God. Um sorry, go ahead. No, you're fine. Um, but the uh third writer for this um is Charlie Kaufman. Um and Charlie Kaufman is a renowned surrealist filmmaker. This is the third movie, the third large movie that he did. Um he also did being John Malkovich and Adaptation. I have seen both of them. It's been a very long time for both of them. Um being John Malkovich is do you know anything about being John Malkovich? No. I don't. Okay, I'm not gonna tell you in that case. Okay. I might put it on the list because I don't remember if it's I don't remember if I enjoyed it or not. I know I've seen it. I don't remember anything about it. Um but he but he focuses a lot on like on surrealism, on a lot of surreal visuals, a lot of like, you know, nonlinear storytelling. Um so things that, you know, are very apparent in this movie, like sort of his his trademarks. Um, this is like one of like the three big movies that he's um written specifically. So, like I said, it was based on um just the very vague story concept of what if you got a card that said you'd have been erased from someone's memory. The writers kind of put together a pitch for it. They didn't really think there was like too much there, but um studios got involved and started bidding on it. Um, it got bought by a studio in 1998. And so uh Michelle Gondry started working, or um, no, Charlie Kaufman um started had started working on the script for this. In 2000, Memento came out, which is funny because we just talked about it in the last Memento is the one um that uh uh Guy Pierce was in. Oh that um Christopher Nolan. Oh, oh I was gonna say we just talked about this in the last episode. That's why.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

I was like, why do we talk about it? I was like, I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

No, you're totally fine. Um, so Memento also has a lot of like memory loss, retracing steps, sort of like I knew that much unreliable narrator. Yeah. So that came out in 2000, two years after this pitch got picked up. Um, Charlie Coffin wanted to just scrap the entire movie because he's like, it is too similar, there are too many similarities, it's like it's coming out too soon. The studio basically was like, No, you need to finish it anyways. Like, you need to go ahead and stick with this. Um, in between starting to actually write the script and uh filming starting, um, the pitch got traded between a bunch of studios. No one actually reviewed anything until the final script. Like the script? Yeah, no, no one reviewed it until the final draft of it. And then it was like, okay, let's see what happens. Um, this is fine. Go ahead and do it. Imagine that happening now. Imagine.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

We'd have better movies, probably.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Honestly, yeah. Just let artists make stuff. Um, but yeah, specifically, um, Charlie Coffin wanted he didn't want the movie to be a thriller. Um, instead of focusing on the actual science of what's happening, like it is, and there are a lot of like looking at like the awards of this movie is one, like it's won a lot for science fiction. It is objectively science fiction. Yeah. Yeah. It is, yeah, and not knowing anything about it, it's like, oh, it's a relationship. It's like, oh, I didn't know there was like sci-fi and like mad science. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah. Um, but specifically, and and I think effectively what they did is downplaying the actual science and focusing on the relationship between the characters. Like, not like it's the science, it works because it needs to. Like it is hand-wavy science. It is my favorite kind. It's exactly it's all I need out of a science fiction movie, honestly. Um, so I had looked at awards that this movie has won. Um, there is a whole separate Wikipedia page devoted to how many awards this has won. Um, it has won 34 total awards. It was nominated for 97. Um notably, it won best original screenplay at the Oscar. Um, it won it won best original screenplay for a lot of other, um, a lot of other awards as well. Um apparently it's one I apparently it's one of the only movies that has won best original screenplay and not one best picture.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Oh. I know. Did you see what won Best Picture that year? Oh God, 2004? I should have looked that up.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Hang on. I think I still have that. No, no. Um no, it's okay. But um Kate Winslett was nominated for Best Actress, uh, the Oscars. Um, and Kate Winslett and Jim Carrey were both nominated for Golden Globes. Um, absolutely like seeing that it's so well deserved. Like all of the awards that were in this were just so many of Million Dollar Baby.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Okay. Because it was early 2005 for release in 2004. Yeah, if that makes sense. I've never seen that one. Since we're on a tangent already, is Memento the one with the tattoos? Yeah, that's it. Okay, the only reason I know that, Brooklyn 99, because Adrian gets Memento disease. They called it funny dory disease. And he has all these tattoos on his body of like what he had done and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's exactly what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Okay, cool. Got it. Now I don't need to see it.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I love that so much of pop culture is just, oh, so this other pop culture reference, and you're like, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

unknown 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

It's all good. That's how we learn as a society about pop culture references now.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Like, why did I know the Mission Impossible theme when I was a child? I don't know, because it was in other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yeah. Yeah, everyone did a Mission Impossible parody. And I'll be back.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Terminator hadn't seen that before, but I knew it.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah. But yeah, uh, I had mentioned I'd mentioned already it's constantly on best films ever made lists. The soundtrack is by John Bryan. So Emily and I talked briefly before we started filming. Um, one of the songs on the soundtrack is Mr. Blue Sky. And if you've seen this movie, it's not, it's such a good song. It's not in the movie. The reason it's on the soundtrack is because they used it in the trailer, which is so totally different from the actual movie. It's very, it truly takes every physically comedic clip of anything in this movie and cut. It's it's like, it seems like a parody of the movie. Like, you know, when people like recut movies to make like a horror version of it and stuff?

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

It feels like that. It's like, oh, how do you make this like a quirky rom-com? It's like you said it to Mr. Blue Sky. That's what you that's what you do. Um, but yeah, the the music, it's it's really good. It's very pretty.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

It is good.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. Um, there are also uh tracks by the Polyphonic Spree, the Willows, and Don Nelson. Um, John Bryant is a uh this soundtrack is like apparently like inspired a lot of other lot of other musicians. Um it gets sampled a lot in other um in other media. I looked it, I kind of fell down a rabbit hole. Like there are like whole other albums that are like based on the soundtrack of this movie. Like it's I know, like it's I thought that I was gonna recognize more like individual songs or titles because I did have an insufferable hipster friend in college who would make me mix CDs all the time, and it was all like you have to hear this. And I'm like, okay, this is all like hipster indie bullshit. It's great, they're all good, but it's like it's that music that's like such a time capsule of like, oh, okay, I understand. I was surprised at how few actual like trivia and fun facts I was able to find about this. A lot of them are like if you notice in this scene, it's this, and it's actually, and it's just like it's kind of if you're watching the timeline stuff. Yeah, kind of, or like if you well, actually with the timeline, one of the notes with the timeline is that um specifically uh all of Clementine's hair color changes are supposed to be the visual signifier of where they're at in their relationship. Um that makes sense, yeah. Apparently, in the script, there's a uh they allowed for a lot of improvisation, especially with um Elijah Wood and Mark Rufflow's characters. Um, they were allowed to improvise a lot. Um, and but most of Kate Winslett and Jim Carrey's dialogue was from videotaped rehearsal sessions where they the two of them basically just got very emotionally close and they shared a lot of personal stories about their own, you know, relationships and heartbreaks and stuff. And so a lot of their conversations about relationships are really just rooted in them as real people. So this is like it's a deeply personal movie for like all for both of them specifically, which makes it seem even more bananas than everyone else is just kind of riffing improvising a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, what a weird tone shift for every other scene. I mean, it it is honestly, because it's really just Joel and Clementine in many of the scenes, and then everyone else from the doctor's office in other scenes. So it it is, you know, and that that's like two whole separate movies.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, I was gonna say it does feel like two fully separate movies in a lot of ways. Um yeah, so uh the one thing that I did find interesting, um, so apparently Michelle Gondry, the director, um, was kind of a nightmare to Jim Carrey specifically um to try to get him to stay to like be in character to embody Joel. He didn't allow Jim Carrey to improvise any of his lines, which is not a restriction he put on anyone else in the movie. Um, he would purposely give misleading directions and like kind of keep him like a little bit off, basically, during filming. About a year before they started shooting, um Jim Carrey went through a really bad, like, emotional breakup. And Michelle Grandry said his heartbroken state was quote, so beautiful, so broken. And he basically asked him to stay sad until they were ready to film. He was like, that's perfect, keep this for another year. I'll see you then. And was just like, hey, maybe don't go to therapy, maybe just stay miserable, which I feel like is a crazy thing to ask someone. Um, yeah. It and like apparently, like Jim Carrey was like talked about that in a documentary, and he's like, that's just kind of he was like, that's how fucked up the industry was. Like, yeah, he he was the one who was like, Yeah, here's how this happened. Um, and it sucked that it happened. Um which it's one of those things where it's like, man, it sucked that you had such a miserable time film filming this because you did a great job and your performance is wonderful. It's it I feel bad. Yeah, that's hard. I know. Uh apparently Michelle Gaundry was also a nightmare uh during filming. Um, they used very minimal CGI, um, as much as they could do practically, they did. There like very little CGI was used, um, which I think it's it's beautiful. It's so impressive. Um, but this guy sucks. So basically, with the house that is on Montauk, when it is getting submerged and filling up with water at the end of the movie, that was actually filling up with water because basically what they had was like the set of the house. And what Gondry wanted to do was have a team bring the set to the water and get it like a little bit in the water. So then it would like when the tide came in, it would start flooding. The team that he had hired specifically to do that was like, that's not safe. We're not gonna do it. So Michelle Gondry fired that team and then had the production team, including the actors and producers, help move the set into the water. So which is insane. I know it's insane. It's it's bad. It's genuinely a bad thing that this guy did. And apparently, like the head of the union came in and was like, hey, what the fuck, man? Like berated him in front of like the rest of the crew. So like he like he got told off. Like he got like embarrassed, but at the same time, I'm Well, he got his shot.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I'm just like he's like, I won. Exactly. And that sucks. It it's really frustrating when when you know, yeah, shitty decisions like that actually turn into beautiful filmmaking. It really sucks. Oh my god. I know. Two more things. So it was hard to find exactly who the bet like the original choice for casting for Clementine's character was. The original, the first choice for casting for Joel was Nicolas Cage. I know. I what? I know. I can't picture it at all. I have no idea how I don't feel so wrong, and I don't know why. It is. I just I don't, I don't know. I don't know. He and the and the only reason he didn't do it is because he had another filming obligation. He was like booked and couldn't do it. I can't imagine this movie like without Jim Carrey. Like there's no world in which this movie isn't the way it is. It's crazy. But yeah, and then the last, the last little bit of trivia that I found fascinating. Um, so like there were a couple different, like, different scenes that were cut, different like sort of character relationships that were edited down or cut out. Um, apparently, in one version of the script, uh, Coffin began the story 50 years in the future. An old woman who turns out to be Mary tries to drop off a bulky manuscript at a publishing house, but the publisher declines her offer. We later learn that the manuscript contains all of the memories that Lakuna had erased from its patients. And that village version of the film ends with an elderly Clementine once again erasing Joel. I know, I know, it feels crazy. I'm like, I don't like that at all. I don't like that at all, but I read it and I hated it so much that I had to share it. I was like, I was like, yeah, I was like, hey, feel bad with me. I don't like this.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

No, yeah, and of course, a movie like this would have different versions of it, and you could piece it together, you could edit it so many different ways. It's crazy. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, I I can't imagine it. Um, yeah, and then so the last little thing that I wanted to throw out. So it's funny that you mentioned 500 Days of Summer, because specifically, one of the things that is interesting about this movie and Clementine's character specifically, is that this movie came out three years before the term Manic Pixie Dream Girl was coined.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

That was coined in 2007 by a journalist, uh Nathan Rabin. He specifically, funnily enough, was talking about Kirsten Dunt's character in Elizabethtown, um, which was filmed in our hometown.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Really?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

With Orlando Bloom. That was the one where they were walking around the Northgate Mall. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. There you go. That was cool. Vintage. Um, but yeah, so apparently I I have seen that movie. It's been a very long time. Her character sucks. I have to basically apparently sucks. Yeah, so basically, what this guy has coined the Manic Pexie Dream Girl is a one-dimensional woman who provides emotional support or life lessons to the male protagonist, and she does not get anything back. She doesn't get anything in return. Specifically, it's like that character, um, but there are other versions of it. Summer from 500 Days of Summer is a little bit that, but it's sort of in that one, there's a little bit of sub of a subversion of it where basically um Joseph Gordon Leavitt's character sees her as that. And then she just like actually says, No, fuck you, like that's not what I am. And there's actually that rejection of it, like we get from Clementine in this movie where she's like, I'm not a concept, and directly saying, like, I'm not gonna, I'm not here for you know, to solve all your problems. Um, yeah, I I think that like just the aesthetic of it, a lot of times Clementine will sort of get grouped in with that, like a lot of other Zoe De Chanel characters.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

A lot of times I was gonna say, was it Yes Day, which is Jim Carrey? Yes man, yeah. Yes man, yeah. I mean, she is peak, peak manic pixie dream girl with that one.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, because she doesn't she doesn't really do much. Another character that works with that, a movie that came out the same year as this one, 2004, Natalie Portman's character from Garden State. You haven't seen Garden State. We gotta put Garden State. Zach Braff, right? Yeah, Zach Braff.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I know about them.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, we got we gotta put that one on the list just for just for the 2004. That one has a better soundtrack. I will, I will say that. Um more more singles on the soundtrack. We'll talk about it. Um you'll know the soundtrack from that. That's what yeah. Okay, yeah. Let me relive my youth. Yeah, it's good. Um, but I think like thinking about this, like it's I like the fact that like there are so many elements of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl here. The fact that there is a verbal rejection of that. Like Clementine isn't a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, even though this is like at its heart, it really feels like Joel's story. Like he is our narrator, he's the one that we're really following. Um, my in my head, she reminds me a lot more of Ramona Flowers, where she is put on the Manic Pixie Dream Girl pedestal. Good one, and then is basically the male protagonist has to go, oh no, I'm wrong. You're not actually this.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

And I think I'm the bad guy. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

It's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't treat you like this. Because I think, and also like getting into the you know, the weeds about the term itself. Like Zoe De Chanel, like even addressed it like in an article at one point and was like, hey, it's kind of it just gets used to kind of describe any like quirky female character. And I don't think that you guys are actually reading into it. Like it's kind of turned into like something that's like, oh, you know, well, I I think that you should be treated like this because you're Manic Texas Dream Girl. It's like, no, you don't, I don't think you understand like the what it really means.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

So And it's just like a yeah, yeah, it's it's become just a trope and a way to describe someone who's just quirky and fun and doesn't have a real job. And you're like, what? No.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

That's uh Yeah, it's like so whimsical. It's like, nope, no, whimsy doesn't make you unimportant in someone's story. There's more to it than that. Um, and I think you know, it there is a so many elements of that trope in Clementine, but I think that especially like the fact that it verbally says that's not what's happening here, and also the fact that, you know, it's four years before the the term got coined, I think is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

But yeah, no, that is interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

But yeah, those are my fun facts.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Cool. I liked it. Yeah, I was really curious, and I'm and I'm glad I watched the trailer because I was like, how did the fact that this is basically science fiction get past me for over 20 years?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah. So I also know I also forgot, and this is something that I did not know at the time. So apparently the way that they sort of like advertise in this movie in the early 2000s, sometimes what people would do to advertise a movie is make up a website and pretend it was a real thing. And then you would go, oh man, I wonder what this website's about. And then it turns out it would be actually an advertisement for something. So there was an advertisement for Lakuna uh um industries or whatever. And it had like, you know, the information about what the what the company did and everything. And then that was basically what ended up being the the advertisement for this movie. Um, and if you watch the trailer for this movie, like it starts out with like a little bit of Tom Wilkinson's character explaining what they do here and the science behind it, and then it gets real jaunty. And it then you go see the movie and you're like, where was that jauntiness? I'm crying. What do you mean? Yeah. Um yeah, like the idea of like advertising that fully missed me. I wasn't gonna, you know, be in any kind of space where I was wandering into websites like that. Like it'd be like, hey, do you see this, you know, this thing's really cool? I'm like, no, it's 2003. I'm on Neopets. I don't need to talk to you. Yeah, like ask Jeeves or something. I have a I have a live journal. God, I got an alert the other day that said my live journal is 23 years old. It's nice that you still have the email that is linked to your live journal because I don't get into mine. I switched it over to my like current email. Well, no, I switched it over like early on.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, clearly, because you can still log into it. You had the time to switch your email. Yeah, I did. Um, mine was an AOL account that I can't get into now. Uh yeah. Don't worry, MySpace is coming back, and I'll just do that. It is! Honestly, I'm in. I'm gonna get a fucking MySpace. So down. I'm ready. We're getting MySpace. Tom's gonna save us. It's not Tom anymore, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Oh, right. He did sell it. I forgot. I listened to a whole podcast about that. Never mind. So did I. Yeah, okay. We probably listen to the cards.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

It's like two brothers or something. Two guys, there's two guys that own it. Honestly. And they're like, it's coming. And and every millennial online is like, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah.

unknown 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

We're so ready for this. We gotta we gotta pick out our songs. We gotta figure it out. I gotta learn how to code again.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

In our top eight.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, let's go, baby.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Okay. Oh man, I gotta talk about the whole movie. I know.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Luckily, I I really thought this movie was gonna be more than two hours. I forgot that it's only like an hour 48. It's still, it's a packed hour 48.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

It is.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And after like the first 30 minutes, I was like, where else do we have to go? Um, but we we we moved forward from what was happening. But at first I was like, okay, so they get a ri the end, right? They get that's it, right? No.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

I I had texted you, I I felt confidently that it would get easier to take notes as you went on. Did it get easier to take notes as the movie, like towards the end of it?

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Well, yeah, once once it was very clear that like Joel was always like dream Joel and Clementine was always dream Clementine for the most part. That's fair. That made it easy because it was like this is this scene, and then the Mary Stan Patrick Howard of it is something else.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

That's true. That's a good point. Yeah. You're not like, wait, what, wait, what? Wait, who is this?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah. Or like, I can't tell what's real and what's not. Yeah, okay. Yes, it it it definitely did. And then the the um the pulling back to the the beginning again. Yeah. You know, which like like most dovies are wont to do if there's some sort of timey whimey stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

We gotta go full circle.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, no, it was it was fine.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Okay, good. So didn't realize it was rated R, and I was like, oh man, I think it's been uh a little while since we've done that. So we got Jim Carrey asleep, and thanks to subtitles, I heard a car door close and a car pull away. And I already knew this was about a couple. So it's like he's waking up alone, and I was like, oh, okay, like immediately assumption like she left. So he's on a sofa bed, and I at first I was like, oh, you know, maybe they like had a fight and he was on a different, like no, that's just his fucking bed. Yeah. He was like, My guy, what are you doing with your life? So I also like I like quick cuts. I don't like meandering long shots of not showing me anything. I like, okay, we're on to the next scene. He is outside, he's in his car. There's a giant dent on it, and he's like, What the fuck? So then he leaves a note for the car next to him because obviously it would be the car next to him. We're in New York. We are waiting, he's waiting for a train. Then we get the overarching narration of uh random thoughts for Valentine's Day 2004. This is when we find his name is Joel. So he's doing that stupid Valentine's Day bullshit of like holidays are for greeting card comedies that make people feel bad, blah, blah, blah. It's awful. Then he's like, I didn't I felt weird today. So I ditched work and took a train to Montauk, but I'm not an impulsive person. Blah, blah, blah. Um, but yeah, he he sprints to that train. And I was like, that is not matching up with the uh the narration of like, yeah, I just decided to take a train.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, just like so. It's like, yeah, I just decided that he's like running.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

It's like, and I was like, what happened? Like, what happened? Did I miss? Did I look down? Did I miss something? So uh he's calling into work at the train station, like, oh, I don't feel good. Um, he went to a frozen beach basically, and like journaled and drew. Uh-huh. He said it was weird that it was the first entry in two years that he saw comments about sand, blah, blah. He says sand is overrated. It's just tiny little rocks. I'm like, shut up, Joe. Like, there's yeah. It's like, oh my God, you were every hipster from the 2000s that I hated.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

And you know, literally from those couple lines, there were people who saw that in 2004 and went, oh my God, I'm I'm him. He's so right. Yeah. It's like he's so right. And then it's like, oh no, I'm bad.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Or just we just didn't know. They just don't know. Yeah, we didn't know better. Yeah. It's fine. So uh the only other person on this frozen beach is a woman in an orange sweatshirt. And he's like, Oh, I want to meet someone, but I can't make eye contact. Maybe I should get back together with Naomi. Blah. And then he's like randomly looking inside someone's house, and I was like, that's weird. And then he's like, Oh, well, she did love me. She was nice, that was fun. Or that was that was it's nice to be loved. Yeah. Um he's at a diner. Uh, the same woman is like across from him a couple tables. He sees her put uh alcohol in her coffee, and then she like cheers him and he like actually smiles, but he's like super awkward. Um then they get on the same train back, and he is hella awkward still. Yeah. Um, she's still like she actually, you know, acknowledges him, says hi, and it's kind of silly. Um he's drawing her on the train and she starts a conversation. Yeah. Um, I got used to it, but at the time it was weird to hear Kate Winslit with an American accent.

unknown 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

I was like, I'm so not used to this. Yeah. It got normal, but at first it felt very foreign. I was like, I don't know if this is believable. And then I just kind of believed in it. So I was like, all right, this, I guess this works.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah. She had she had also just done like a lot of like period piece movies. And yeah, um, I think she does a good American accent. There are definitely there are definitely people who do not.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Sure. The movie that I have watched the most with her though is The Holiday, where she's very British.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

So in my brain, that's that's what she should sound like. Yeah, it's just like, what are you doing here? This is wrong. This is absolutely wrong. This is the travesty. Yeah. Who ma'am? Who are you? What's going on here? Yeah. So it turns out they're going to the exact same place, and she's like, Oh, I recognize you. I work at Barnes and Noble. Like, you must have come in there.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Yeah. Because there's only one, because it's 2004.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Well, he also named a specific place. Oh, he didn't. He was in New York City. Yeah. So I was like, I'm sure it's smaller than like Manhattan. Yeah. So I did kind of assume like I don't know. Yeah. Um, but I mean, she was also like, Oh, you must not recognize me because my hair color changes. And it's like, that's the absolute opposite. It's like if if you have brightly colored hair in 2004, people would obviously remember you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

There's also we get this really like jaunty, whimsical music as she comes up.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

It two lines later, I said something about like the weird quirky music where she just like keeps like, you know, getting closer and talking to him and stuff. But um, yeah, she mentions that she applies her personality in a paste.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Uh-huh. So, real quick, her listing off the hair dye names, it did, especially like with the thought of like the you know, the subversion of the manic pixie dream girl, it really reminded me of Ramona Flowers uh listing off every single T the T's that she has. Yeah, it it makes me think as it's like there's this and this and this. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah, this is this is a vibe.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Are all those real? Did you make some of those up? Uh she tells him her name, it's Clementine. She says, you know, like, don't make fun of it. And he's like, What? I don't know what you mean. So she sings the song and he's like, Oh, I don't know it. And uh we find out later why. Um, but Huckleberry Hound, what is that?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Huckleberry Hound, he's a cartoon character. Um, it's one of the Hanna Barbera cartoons. You would know him if you looked him up.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Oh, he's the blue guy. Yay!

unknown 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

I didn't know I didn't know that that song was just from the cartoon. I kind of thought I don't know. I thought it was like like just like a folk song sort of Okay, there's videos of him singing it.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

I don't know. What's the story behind? Okay, let's go to what? Yeah. No, the story tells a tragic yet darkly comedic story of a gold miner's daughter during the 1849 California gold rush who trips over a box, falls into a river, and drowns. That is what I thought. Helpless lover watches.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Yeah, I thought it was gonna be something like that. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So it's not I think I'm guessing that it's just like was, you know, popularized in, you know, the 80s or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's he was like 1950s or something. 58, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. No, it's yeah. I was also when they said Huckleberry Hound, I was like, oh, is that like a a man who sang that or something? Oh, I don't know what that is. But then he said later he had a a stuffed animal. Yeah. And I was like, what is this? I don't know. No, you're good. But I didn't want to look it up just in case. Okay. Um, so yeah, at the time he's like, I don't, I don't know any of that. I don't know what that is. She's very straightforward. She tells him multiple times, or um, she's like, I don't like nice uh on myself or like to myself or anybody else, like hates that word. She uh kind of apologizes later, says like I'm really out of sorts. Um, but gets slowly moving seats closer and closer and closer, and it's literally like right next to him.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

And then almost immediately changes her mind, and she's like, I like that you're nice. So he uh insinuates that he has stuff to do, which is just gets uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

It's like I don't know what to do with this.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

He's like, I'm not gonna continue this conversation. I'm obviously going to like tell you to go away or I'm busy.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

So she punches him and then lets him write.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

That was not scripted.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

That makes sense. Yeah, so his reaction is just him reacting.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

It's like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Why? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Why would you do that?

SPEAKER_01 42:13

So uh we're back in New York and he's in his car and offers to give her a ride. She takes him up on it, but asks if he's a stalker. When they get to her house, she apologizes again for you know coming off kind of crazy. Then asks if he wants to come up for a drink. He does. She has a crazy apartment and potatoes dressed as people. Joel isn't talking much. He says his life isn't interesting, even his journal is blank. And uh I said this is two very neurodivergent people in just two different ways.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah, just different flavors of neurodivergent. Yes. Yes. I think there's something where like it's never really defined, but like there are like, I don't think the writers ever said anything about it, but like there's a suggestion that like Clementine is bipolar, and so there's like it like explaining like some of like, especially like the you know, the moodiness and like doing things on a yeah, it's like the outburst, but also like doing things on a whim. And it's like, oh, you know, like yeah, she wouldn't have thought too hard about doing this. That's just you know, on a lark, and it's like, okay, yeah, like the impulse the impulse control, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

So no, for sure. Yeah, I think um uh but but he he makes a comment about um he's worried that he's wasting all of his time, and and they she's like, I do too. So they like have this like weird connection of like I I too worry about wasting my life, and maybe I'm gonna be like, It's like the same fear, like at the heart of of that.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny coming from two very different people.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

So she decides she's going to marry him. Jill doesn't know what to say. Uh at this point I noticed she's playing Bollywood music in the background. And I was like, this is dope. Yeah. Then she says she wants to take him to the Charles when it's frozen for a night picnic.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

It's the Charles River.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Okay, it's a river. Okay. I was like, it's just a body of water, right? Because we keep saying the Charles. And I was like, what? Okay. So she's like very clearly flirting with him. And for like a second, he seems kind of into it. And then he's like, I I gotta go. So she wants him to call her and writes her number on his hand, which I wonder if this is the first time it was done in a movie because it's been done so many times. But I'm like, this the the impetus for writing the number on like the body part of the case.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Oh, I'm sure it's not. No. I think that you don't think okay. No, I doubt it.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Okay. Now I'm trying to think about 90s and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yeah, it is, it is very like it is very of that era. It was like, oh yeah, like writing your number on someone's.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Well, so you didn't have cell phones, so it's like, okay, you gotta call me when you get home. Exactly. Yeah. Um, yes. So so he leaves the apartment smiling, which is like the first time that we've really seen him smile through this whole thing. And through the narration, it's like, I don't think he does that that much. So he gets home and like immediately calls her number.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

And uh, you know, they talk. Uh and the next we are, I don't know, maybe the next day or so. Yeah. We're uh on the honeymoon on ice, uh, where they are at the frozen lake. And at this point, I was like, wait, this is the poster. Yeah. Uh it's not. But I was well, we're close enough. It's another time where I think it's the actual poster. Yeah. Um, I didn't know we do it multiple times, honestly. Yeah. So she fully runs out, falls on her ass. Joel's worried it'll break, but she gets him to come out and then she just like lies down, and he lies down next to her. I like that at that point he's like, I think I heard a crack. And she's like, No, you didn't.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

So apparently while they were laying on the ice, um, they did constantly hear cracks, and it was like it was it literally is thick enough ice that it was not gonna do anything. Like it was not in danger of breaking, but it's like, you know, you're on top of ice. Like it's still yeah, it's still a little like, okay, cool, my head is right here. Um, it was also apparently freezing, like they kept having to like warm them up between takes because like their teeth would keep chattering and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Oh no. I know. Yeah, anytime it was cold, it looked cold. Yes. It's like I don't think I don't think you guys are acting here. Like I'm pretty sure it's just very cold.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah, it's like, no, we we picked seasons on purpose to film these things, it looks like.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

I guess, yeah, yeah. So she asked him about constellations. They're driving back. She fell asleep in the car. Uh, he gets to her house and she doesn't want to go to her house. She wants to go to his house to sleep. Um Joel is uh surprised, but says yes. While he's waiting, fucking Elijah Wood comes by his car. I didn't know his name, so I just have all caps. Elijah Wood exclamation point. Yeah, correct. And this is like what, a year after Lord of the Rings came out?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. This is it's after all three of them because it was 2001, 2002, 2003.

unknown 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Oh, okay. So this is post-Hobbit, Elijah Woods. He asks Joel if he can do anything. And then, like, what is he doing there?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, it's like, can I help you?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah. And then Joel's like, very confused, and then Elijah leaves, and you're like, that was weird. That was weird. Yeah. So then we just cut to Joel driving home crying, and it's now that I realized, oh, this is the opening credits now. Yeah. And I said, What the fuck is happening? Yeah. If I know.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, I I had forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

I was like, man, it's been a long time since I saw this movie. I'm like, woof, okay. And I was like fully in it. And then and then it was like in production, da-da-da-da. And I was like, oh my God. We're we're in for some shit. Okay, cool. What's happening?

SPEAKER_00 48:14

So at this point, yes. Did you think did you think this was just like them meeting for the first time and just like, oh, this is like their meat cute of like whatever's going on with them? Or did you kind of have an idea of like, okay, something is weird? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

No, not really. I mean, I th I thought she was acting strangely. Yeah. But I figured that was a character flaw and not like, oh, she's weird because her mind's fucked up or something. Yeah. And like, no, no, I thought this was like, oh, this is the first time. He's talking about a Naomi. Like, I think the only thing later on was the journal being empty. Yeah. If I thought about it more and thinking about it afterwards, it's like, oh, because they tore it all out. But yeah, no, no. And then Elijah was, I I was like, I that was weird.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah. It's like that's weird, but we'll figure that out later. That's I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

And I um I was telling Kate this before we started recording. I really try not to find out anything, but you know how your eye catches something and you read a bit of it before you can stop yourself. The description for Amazon was like a couple, something about memory, something, something. And I was like, oh no, I know something, and I didn't think I knew what this movie was about. So I was a little suspicious. But the trailer had that. That is true.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

I went in knowing what other people would have known. Yeah. So that makes me feel better than like, you know, the previous movie we watched, you know, The Prestige, where it's like, oh my God, God forbid you know any of the plot twists.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah, oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, with this one, it's like it's it's a twist, but it's also the premise, but it's like, okay, but like how it's less of like a surprise ending. It's more like untangling as you go. Like it's not like, oh, here's the twist. It's like you're putting the puzzle pieces together the whole way, basically, for this one.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Yes. And you know, the the true twist of I think of them just like of not giving up, of them not giving up on what they had already decided to do, I think is the true twist and you know, the the the heart of the movie. Yeah. Uh and really when it like gets more consistent and more understandable, and it's like honestly, the movie starts confusing and gets clearer. Yeah. But like I think so you yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this. No, it's okay. Um, but it it worked for some reason. Um, and like I was mad that I kind of saw something about it, but seeing the trailer, it makes me feel much better because I was like, how did why did people go see this? How did people go see this? But it's like, oh yeah, they already knew that was a premise, and we just don't understand the relationship behind it.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Yeah, because also it's a title that gives nothing away. Like the poster gives nothing. It's like I don't know what's happening. It's like I it's these two people. It's like I, yeah, there's no, unless someone is like, hey, it's about this, like there's no way that just the the imagery of it, like it just looks like a movie about a relationship, and that's it. Yeah, yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

So yeah, yes. So yeah, so then then we we opening credits. Um, Joel's driving, he takes a cassette. You can't hear what it is, but he takes a cassette, throws it out of the car. I thought maybe it was the song that was playing. This is when I questioned, did she die? Yeah, oh god. I still wasn't sure. Like, you know, there could be memory erasure, but like maybe somebody also died. I don't know. Yeah, I think it were both. I think is he is he home or he's walking. And this is when like we got like oh no, uh, his hands are shaking as he drives. We had like weird music. Um, not creepy, but just like like something's off the music. Tense. Yeah. This is when I noticed he had like circles on the side of his head, like dots. And then we've got two guys in a van following him. Joel's going into his apartment. We find out it's uh Valentine's in a day. Joel's neighbor asks about Clementine. Joel's kind of cagey about it. Uh he's going to sleep at 8:30. He puts on the same pajamas from the beginning, takes some medicine.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

He takes the pill and then it kind it kind of gets a little like there are so many like dark, blurry, sort of purposely obscured shots in this movie. And this is where it's like as he's like, as whatever like you know, medication is like taking effect, like it gets a little bit fuzzier. It like slants to the side a little bit, and then Joel is stumbling and then just fight like passes out in his kitchen. Yeah, yeah. So he's he gets like kind of like paranoid though, too. It's like he like looks out the window.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yeah, right, because because the van people are outside, but then he's like he's turning off all the lights and he's like wobbling around, and yeah, it does it does feel like this paranoia, but also the medicine. You look at the script, you can't read any of it. Like you don't know what it is, what it's for, the directions, anything. So it's like, okay, you don't really understand, but it's very deliberate. I am taking this medicine, yeah. Um, so uh our our van guys, Stan and Patrick, which are Mark Ruffalo and Elijah Wood, uh-huh, just come into his apartment with some stuff, and he is passed out on the floor.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

But we don't see Elijah Wood for a very long time. I thought we heard his voice. We hear his voice. And that is a they there's a lot of assumption on the on the audience that you don't automatically know what Elijah Woods sounds like because they're like obscuring him through so much of this movie. Yes, and that's and that's the thing, it's because it's 2026 and we all know what the fuck Elijah Woods sounds like. That's yeah. Well, and we also heard him earlier. We did, yeah. So we know Elijah Wood is in play, like we're we're aware.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

But yeah, yeah, and he's one of the guys okay, well, I I knew it. No, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

But like the fact that it's you know, like you don't see his face until much later, like it's a whole like it's okay it purposely like not showing his face as we go.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Um, and I didn't realize until now that this is like the end of the day where he goes to the the doctor. Okay, so this is the cassette. I don't know what the cassette is though.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I don't know what the cassette is either, because they didn't give him anything. Yeah, it's not his yeah. I think it might just be music. It might just be like Yeah, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

So they come in to the apartment with so much stuff. Joel's on the floor. We see Joel again with the dots on his face reliving the moment with the neighbor, uh-huh, but it's like foggy. It's like he's seeing it, but he's not in it, kind of. And it's like the same text of, oh, asking about Clementine and stuff. Oh, then we see uh um Joel is talking to a woman and a man. Uh it's three days before Valentine's Day. He's talking about wanting to get something resolved. At this point, I mean, I kind of knew he was who he was talking about, but I don't know, I don't I don't remember how quickly they admitted that it was Clementine that he was talking about. I don't remember, but I I knew because cause I think he was saying, Oh, she changed her number. I bought a gift for her to take to her house. She's there with a young guy. Yeah. Looks like she doesn't even know who I am. So then we we cut to him seeing her at Barnes and Noble. She calls him sir. And Okay, yeah, I I made the Elijah Wood connection. I don't I don't know if we were supposed to know because it sounds like Patrick's there.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Exactly. Yeah, and I think that's the thing. Like, I don't, I really don't know if it's the assumption that we don't know what Elijah Wood sounds like. I don't know if it's the fact that like we just have to suspend disbelief and and assume that Joel doesn't, you know, isn't putting he Joel doesn't have pieces to put together. Like there's nothing for him to put together at this point. So, you know, it's all kind of a moot point, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

So Patrick's there, like acting as her boyfriend is my assumption. I don't really know. Um, let's see. The lights go out, like he's in Barnes and Noble, and then like the lights of the store go out, and then he's like back in the apartment with Robin, Robin Carrie.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Um it's a good shot. Joel. I like that one a lot. I think that was the first time that I was like, damn, this is good.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

It is crazy. Yeah. Um Joel's like, oh, you know, I think she's punishing me for being honest. And I was like, what did you say? Yeah. Um Carrie's like, well, just make it a clean break. Like, this is this is your chance. It's for the best. Just get rid of it. Yeah. Um, so then Rob and Carrie immediately get into a fight about you're not really sure what.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

And then they have their own shit going on that we never get into. And that's oh my god. Yeah, they're they're bad.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Rob and Carrie, why?

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

So uh Rob ends up giving a Joel a card about something. And I paused it and it says, uh, dear Mr. and Mrs. Eakin, Clementine Krasinski has had Joel bearish erased from her memory. Please never mention their relationship to her again. Thank you. And I said, What? And then the name disappears. And then Rob's like, I don't know what this means. So uh Joel like kind of gets mad. Um wait, so now I'm confused. Yeah. Are we just are we just is any oh my god, okay. Um because I was like, the name disappears. That means she's getting erased. Yes. So that means that none of what we're seeing is the real member. It's it's a like it's vibrator. It's all a dream.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

So I think some of it I think kind of to an extent, because it is like it's all moving backwards in time. So that does make sense. Like we're moving like backwards chronologically for the most part. Kinda. Yeah, but I think like I think we can assume that like there are some things where it's like this is the memory as it actually happened, and then there's like usually it's like here's the actual memory as it happened, and then at the end of the day, there's the distorted one. Yeah, usually like towards the end, there's either something distorts or something changes or something disappears.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, because I didn't I didn't understand the name disappearing until I just read it again, and I was like, wait, this is the memory being erased in his brain currently as we speak. Yeah. Joel goes to Lacuna, um, and there's so many cards being printed, like cards like the one that his friend got are being printed. Kirsten Dunst is there as the receptionist. Joel's made an appointment to talk to the doctor, but she still he still has to fill out a form. Stan, while she's taking him back, Stan just pops out and scares Kirsten, and it's Mark Ruffalo from the van. And then she's like, Oh my god, I'm working. And I said, Thank God Mark Ruffalo isn't the doctor. Because I was like, oh my god, no. Is he like, is he the guy in charge? Oh no. Is fuck boy? Yeah. Okay, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

God, it's not much better, but like such a wild look for Mark Ruffalo. Honestly, it's not bad. It's not bad, but it's very it's it's such a departure from the last however many things I've seen him in. I'm just like, oh god.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Yeah. Yeah, I just saw him in Spider-Man and I was like, oh, yep, that's totally different.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

Yeah, I was gonna say, this is not Bruce Banner at all. This is this is a different man.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

Oh my god. I don't I don't even know what that is. So the doctor, uh, I'm just gonna call him Howard because later on we just call him Howard. That's fine. Um is apologizes to Joel, you should never have seen this card. And Joel's like, well, this is a hoax. And Mary's like, it's not a hoax. And I was like, okay, Mary, Kirsten Dunst, like whatever. So Joel still doesn't believe it. And they say, Oh, you know, Clementine was not happy and she wanted to move on. We provide that possibility. So we cut back to Joel's with Carrie and Rob again, and I just said, they are dysfunctional. Yes. Um, they just are. I I didn't oh right, because he was doing something in the kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

They hammering, and she's like, What? He's like, I'm building a birdhouse. Yes, he's so indignant about it, and I'm like, shut up. I hate that. It's it's David Cross, and I I I love him in stuff where he's like where everyone else is as awful as him, but like as this tone in this, I'm like, oh my god, you suck so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Yeah. So I think I can't remember who said it. I it might have been Carrie that was like, oh, you know, Clementine erased you like as a lark, as like a joke. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Yeah, that was like just Carrie's like, yeah, she's impulsive. Like she didn't, she probably didn't think it through. Like she just, you know, did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Yes. Yeah. So uh Joel is crying in his broken car. Then he he is uh he's back at Lacuna. He we we see Dr. Howard with someone else, and Joel comes in with Mary like hot on his heels when he's like, I want to have it done. Let me too thing. And Mary's like, oh my gosh, like stop. I tried to stop him, but he just ran by. Before Valentine's Day is our busy season.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

It's our busiest time. Crazy. Are you sure?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Mary. So Dr. Howard's like, yeah, that's okay. So what Joel has to do is he has to go home and collect everything that he has that has any association to Clementine, create him to create a map in his brain. So empty at the home. So he's doing that. And at this point, I was like, there's so much stuff that he's pulling out. And this is when I was questioning how long they were dating. He had a mug of her photo, and I was like, What is this relationship? Yeah. Uh so then we hear after the mapping is done, the technicians will come do the erasing at night. So you will wake up in your home and bed with a new life. So I was like, okay, that's that's what happened or started happening. Joel has to come back with his stuff. Uh, I said Joel's being nosy, like looking at someone else's stuff. Yeah. You see a woman with like dog things because she wants to forget a pet. And I was like, that's sad. Why would you do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

I do love when he gets to the waiting room and Mary asks how he is, and he just kind of does these like kind of like wishy-washy like hand thing. It's just like, what do you want me to say? It's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah, well, because she asked him the first time, and he's like, I'm not good. Yeah, it's just like now he's kind of continues that I'm bad. Yeah, yeah. Not great. I'm here. So uh Joel meets Stan, who will be handling your case tonight. And then Joel has to like talk about Clementine to do the brain stuff. So he talks about uh that Joel lived with Naomi, went to a beach party with Robin Carey, and met Clementine. And I said, Oh, okay. So not different. Not what I saw. Um, and I said, Patrick is there too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

We're still hiding him. He's around a corner. We haven't seen his face yet. I never noticed. No, it's totally okay. That's why I'm mentioning it, mentioning it now. Because I was like, ooh, I forgot they did this. And then I was like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

Yeah. Totally. I was like, this is Elijah Wood, damn it. This is what's happening. Why is everyone else so stupid? He was just in three Lord of the Rings movies. This is fucking Frodo. You just shaved his head, you guys. Yeah, goddammit. It came out six months ago. Come on. Yeah. So Joel asked, Oh, you know, is there any risk for brain damage? And Dr. Howard says, the procedure is brain damage. And I go, oh no. He said, but it's like a night of heavy drinking. You won't notice. So they Joel brings all the stuff. I thought, oh yeah, you know, they're just gonna like get rid of it. No, they show him each of the items and they want him to think about it. Yeah. While they map his brain with the memories, and I went, oh my god, that's so brutal. So then we are with Stan and Patrick working on the erasure, and uh Stan's like having some issues with being a clean erase. And Joel is in his pajamas hearing them talk, but he's also in the office with Dr. Howard. So I was like, oh, he can like kind of tell what's happening. So Joel is walking into his own memory of what happened that morning. So there's two of them. Yeah. Both Joels can hear both of them talking. And then Stan's even like, I can hear myself twice in the machine.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

Or so it was like it's very like how could it like yeah, very like surreal fourth wall kind of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

It's like there's too many Joels, too many of him reliving things in his head. And then like, oh, and then like he was like not having a seizure in the sleeping Joel is like moving a lot. And then Stan tells Patrick to just like chill and step away. Yeah. And then Patrick's like talking shit about the apartment. And Stan's like, can we keep working? But Joel can hear this. The last time. Oh, okay. And then I think Joel's narrating, and he's like, okay, this is the last time I saw Clementine. She has orange hair. She's come in. She it's it's 3 a.m. She tells him she's wrecked his car, she was driving drunk. Joel's giving her shit about it, and she's like, chill the fuck out. But then, you know, she goes right back at him and is like, oh, you know, you're just mad, you're just jealous, you're just worried that I slip with someone. And then Joel's like, oh, I already know you did. And isn't that how you get people to like you? And I said, oof. Joel, are you the bad guy here?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

They're both.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

So uh Clementine gets up and leaves. Yeah. And Joel's like, wait, no, I'm sorry. So she's like leaving her stuff and her keys. And then we're like kind of like getting lost in it's getting fuzzy. We're getting lost in memories. Stan says he finished his work. I think he was like, okay, now it just like has to go. Yeah. Like it just does its own thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Yeah, it's almost like they found the last memory of see of actually like seeing her and then start like pressing. Yeah, because it's like, okay, here and back.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

No, that makes sense. Cause they, yeah, get rid of get rid of the doctor part, and then and then from then on. Um so then uh uh Stan's like, oh, you know, Mary's coming over tonight. And then I was like, do Stan and Patrick live together? And then I was like, oh wait, no, this is to the thing. Yeah. Um, and then Patrick's like, I have a girlfriend now. They're like drinking, and it's like, oh, girlfriend situation is weird. And I went, wait a second. What? Like, I get that it's weird because it's Clementine. Yeah. Why else is it weird? Yeah. So um, we're back at Joel. Dream, dream Joel, I guess. I don't know. I guess most of this is dream Joel. I don't know anymore. Yeah. I'm already, we're on page four of 11 and I'm already confused.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

You're doing great. So far, so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Joel sees his car. Oh, right. Oh, because oh, because he sees he sees the dent and is like, oh my god, like she's the one that did that. Like, oh my god, she's the one that did that. And then starts like chasing after her down the street. Um but then he like switches and like oh, here it is. Uh things are like falling apart in the background. Yeah. And he's like yelling at her, like, I'm erasing you, aren't you happy? You did this first. Yeah. By morning you'll be gone. Perfect ending to this shit story. So I'd have to look at my notes later, but like maybe this is the beginning of when you realize like Joel is breaking his own fourth wall. His dream Joel's breaking his own memory wall. Fourth wall of memory ish.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

Because like I think I don't know. I think it's also like I don't know how this is supposed to go. Like, I don't like I don't like we don't really know what a what an ideal, like what a successful erasure goes. Yeah, like what a successful, uneventful erasure looks like.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

Like it could be this, but it just works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Yeah, like it could just be like the person like just experiences it and just like lets it wash over them. And Joel has been like changing it the entire time. Like from this point, going, Yeah, it's like, yeah, you're gonna be gone in a set, like already starts acknowledging, okay, this is a thing that's happening, not just, oh yeah, I remember this and I remember this and I remember this.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Yeah, yeah. So Joel can hear Stan and Patrick talking, and he's like, I think he's still on the street then, yeah, but Clementine's not there. And so Patrick's like, oh, I fell in love with Clementine that night that we erased her memory. I was like, you fucking moron. Oh, and I stole a pair of her underwear, and Stan is like, oh my god, don't tell me that. Yeah, that's like a huge, you know, invasion of like privacy, whatever. But then like they kind of laugh about it. So I'm like, all right. Or no, that's in a second, I think. Yeah. Um uh so Joel, yeah, Joel's like running around trying to look for Clementine, but can hear them. Yeah. We switched to a new memory of uh eating takeout on the couch, but he can still hear them. And uh uh we hear that Patrick went to Barnes and Noble and uh asked Clementine out. Uh it's very unethical. I said they are pieces of shit. What the fuck? Yeah. And then Joel, Dream Joel is like, oh my god, someone's here. Yeah. And they have your underwear. So they stole your underwear.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

She's like, what the fuck? Yeah, she's like, What are you what? I think most of my notes about Patrick just say Patrick sucks. Oh, Patrick's so bad. Yeah, I think that's the only thing I made as I was going through. Like my notes were minimal, but I was like, Patrick sucks so much. Everyone sucks. Fuck you, Patrick. Just the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

I mean, I yeah, towards the end, I was like, all these people suck. Yes, yeah. But like, not on like the I'm completely angry way. I was like, oh man, this is dumb. These people suck.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

Yeah, just like, God, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

You're just the worst. Yeah. So let's see. So now we're in an empty apartment without takeout, but still in the apartment. And he like plays dead and she leaves. It looks like Halloween or something. So uh, and then we're we're I think we're just going through memories. So then they're out walking at the um a flea market.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

So so that so as she leaves, like before the Halloween party, she says, I should have just left you at the flea market. I miss that. Okay. Yeah. So literally it's like that night. And he's like, you know, trying to like, you know, it's like, oh yeah, it's like everything's cool. It's like I'm doing a silly thing. And she's like, fuck you, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Oh man. Okay. I I miss that line.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

Literally, just everything is like, okay, and then the but first this, but first this, but first this, but first this.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, got it. Yeah. So they are Clement Titan and Joel are walking. Um, she's looking at this little kid and she's like, oh, I want to have a baby. And like, he is so Joel is so dismissive. And you can tell immediately, like, what he's thinking. And he's like, like, yeah, I don't want to talk about that right now, whatever. And she's like, no, I'd be great. And he's like, sure, like, sure, you think you can take care of a baby, grown up, grow grown woman, you think you can do that? Yeah. And then she like, to her credit, starts a giant fight right in the middle of a full market um about it. But I mean, he's kind of a shithead. Um but then it starts to fade and get blurry. The doorbell rings in real life for Stan and Patrick. Uh-huh. Mary's here, and I said, Oh, they're dating. Yeah. And then Patrick says, Mary hates me. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, why not? She should. You suck. But she's also bad because she like, you know, goes through, she's like, I'm gonna get real alcohol from Joel's stuff, but then like doesn't get him a drink. She's like, You didn't want one, right? I'm not gonna get you one. Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

The dynamics between all three of them, it's just feels crazy. I'm like, are you friends? Do any of you like each other? What's happening here?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

I don't know. I don't know. It's so unclear. So then she does this like stupid, like college student bullshit of like, I'm gonna say a cool quote before we take a drink. And it's blessed are the forgetful, for they get the better even of their blunders. And I said, What? And she's like, Oh, it's a it's a book of it's from my book of quotations. Um, and I'm like, you arrogant piece of shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

Everyone in this movie is insufferable in their own way.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

Everyone's like, but it just feels like I wouldn't have got it then because I was 14, but this feels like such a college movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Cause like this is just the different versions of all the bad people in college.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah, this is very like the people you meet in college and like right after college. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Yeah. It's and it's like, why? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:15

The perfect time to see this movie is at like 20 to 22. That's the perfect time to see this movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:23

Because you've met Well, because then I feel like it might be more relatable then, and that's bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:28

Well, the thing is, it's the important thing is that you see it and if you think it's relatable, then you go, oh no, what does this say about me?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:39

The important thing is having that extra step of awareness of going, oh no, I'm that guy. Oh, I shouldn't be that guy. Or it's like, oh, I'm her. It's like, oh, I shouldn't be her, like having that extra step. And that takes another two years.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

I know, that's like that takes another couple years. So, so really 25, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:00

I think so. Yeah, watch it the first time at like 21 and then watch it again at 25 and go, oh god, I was so stupid. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. The perspective is important.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:10

Yes. But yeah, like she, and I don't even know if it was then or before, but I was like, there's something weird about you. There's something about Mary. Oh, god damn it. Yes. Yes, there is. Um, let's see. So uh the next memory is uh Joel is being woken up by Clementine. She's telling him, like, you know, that she says everything to him. She's an open book and he doesn't tell her stuff. I'm sure that's true because of everything that I've seen of Joel. And she says, Oh, you know, you don't trust me, like you don't trust uh like telling me things. And then he goes and says, constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:00

I'm like, again, piece of shit behavior. You are not better than her. You are not like an awesome guy that's like just so uh arrogant. Yeah. So and and holier than thou. Yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

It's no, it's real it is so, it's so frustrating. So, like thinking about this, and especially thinking about the fact that this is like at the end of a two-year relationship with someone who like getting off on whatever start, it's like it I feel like I've definitely had really I've been in relationships where it's like, okay, we started off at one point and we never really established like, you know, healthy, clear communication. And then two years down the line, it's like, oh, this is dysfunctional and bad. And it's like, okay, like it's like you're fighting all the time, but it's just like we're not actually saying what we need to. And it's seeing, like, not seeing the path of how we got our how our Clementine and Joel got here yet. This is such a real like our end stage of a relationship. It makes so much sense. And it, but out of context, it is that it's just like, wow, you both suck. Or it's like, oh, that was a really shitty, mean thing to say. And it's like, okay, but like, like what, like, what made you, you know, from like the guy who was really nice and like, you know, thought she was so interesting and thought she was nice in the beginning. It's like, okay, well, if this is the first time you met, it's like, what the fuck happened here? And just trying to figure out what the fuck happened is like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

How did you get so ballsy to this woman in this relationship? Like what's the thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Yeah, like when did you when did you decide that you understood her so well that you were right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what's crazy about, you know, I I think probably a lot of people our age and maybe earlier than that, people didn't know how to communicate. So it's like, you know, this is just like the bad version of that where they're never due, and then they break up. But I'm like, there are there are ways. Just go to therapy and rework. And, you know, like there, this isn't like a death sentence for a relationship. It's uh, oh, I need to work on that. Yes. Not, you know, because I mean, honestly, like she was kind of opening up and like giving him the space, and he was just like, No, I'm disagreeing with you. Like, you're not, you're not telling me the truth. I know the truth about you, and not like saying his own feelings. Because then, you know, she gets pissed and she's like, and I and I love that multiple times she said throughout this movie, because people don't say that, it's like, you I didn't like that you said that. You really hurt my feelings. And I'm like, that's the thing we should normalize people saying as like adults.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

Yeah, that is something that my therapist has said. It's like you can say, it's like, hey, I didn't like that. It's like I didn't like that you said that. And I'm like, that makes so much sense. I'm like, yeah, I should be tells it's like, hey, that part.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

But it just it felt it felt so foreign to hear her say that. And she said it multiple times. And I was like, you know, she might not be the awesomest person, but at least she's like, you know, putting boundaries and like saying how she feels to him. Yeah. When he's not. Yeah. So like, I don't know. So then, oh, and then she's like, oh, uh, she like wants to know what he writes about in his journals that he's writing in all the time. And then like it looks like he's like trying to like kiss her or something, and she like goes away.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

So it's like, oh, that was cool. There's distance. Yes. Yeah. Uh so then we've got, and I was not keeping track of the years, I was only writing them down when he said it. So it's November 19th, 2003. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

Yeah. It's like three months before the uh because it's Valentine's Day.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

Yes, 2004. Um, so he's uh narrating again, like journaling narrating. And he's like, Oh, we had dinner at Keg's again. We're a couple that people feel sorry for, and he's so judgmental, and he's like, Oh, she's gonna get drunk. But then she like fully goes into like, hey, you know, clean your hair off the soap because it's gross. And I was like, I feel like he gets some like weird pleasure in like finding her predictable. Yeah. Because it's like he was like saying things that she was gonna say and just like feeling like uh yeah, okay. So here I said, where does he get off being so high and mighty? What is his deal? Three question marks.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

Yeah, no, absolutely. And especially with this, like the idea that like the the guy that we saw at the beginning of this movie, it's like, oh, well, you know, it's like I don't have anything to say, like my life isn't interesting. Getting worried about like the monotony of going to the same restaurant over and over again, like the idea that he's like, oh, you know, it's like nothing's new and we, you know, we've become this. And I'm like, We're comfortable. Exactly. Oh no. I know. I I don't, I don't know. I maybe this is you know weird 14-year relationship talking, but I'm like, shut up, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

Like, what what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

You're fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

But it's also like I couldn't tell what age they were supposed to be either. Yeah. So I feel like maybe in my 20s, I would have been like, ew, people that go to the same restaurant and have like you know, do boring things and don't go out and don't used to be. I'm sure I've been in the 30s. I'm like, that sounds nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:35

Yeah, I don't I don't know how old they were both supposed to be. I know that she was I think 1975. I think she was like I guess 29 when it came out. And he was about like about 40, I think. What? Yeah. Um, because he was born in 1962, which I did not know about.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:01

I did not know. Oh, okay. I didn't know that much older than her.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:07

Girl, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:08

I wasn't listening to the full numbers. I heard 60 something. Yeah, no, you're fine. Um, yeah, so it's like I I think I think seeing the movie, like it it feels like a movie that you would see in college, but I think like the characters I guess are supposed to be 30, like early 30s, I think. Because like young enough that they're like talking about like, oh, I want it's like, oh, I know we're gonna get married. It's like I want to have a baby. Yeah, but also like 2004. I don't know, like, you know, what like none of their friends have kids, so it's just kind of, you know, whatever like the people they're hanging out with, it is that sort of like early 30s.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

He has a couch bed.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

Exactly, yeah. It's like it does feel like late 20s, early 30s, like figuring it out kind of. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

Yeah, I agree, especially in New York. I I don't know at the time. Like I'm I'm so yeah. Um, so oh, so then we hear a phone dialing? Yes, that'd be ringing. No, dialing, yeah, dialing, yeah. And Patrick is calling Clementine and she's like confused about everything, crying and self-conscious, wants to know if she's ugly, and he's like trying to console her. Um Joel is back at the bookstore and he's trying to see Patrick's face, but he can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:29

Because he tries to like turn him around and it's just the back of his head. And so Patrick's like, man, I gotta go. My girlfriend needs me. Mary's like fucking eating food.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

And it's like, fine, go, I can help.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

And it's like, all right, neat. Back in Dream World, Clementine shows Joel her new orange hair. He likes it. Yeah. It looks like uh she matches her sweatshirt.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

She looks like a tangerine. Uh-huh. And then is this when Joel thinks, how does he know to call you that?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:05

He heard her call her that on the phone. And then, yeah, it's in this memory. It's like, how does how does he know to call her that?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:14

Right. Yes. Yeah, because he because Patrick said it, but then in this memory, Joel's like, wait a second, why would he know that?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:21

And here's here's the thing: a Clementine is a type of orange, tangerines are a type of orange. I feel like it's not that creative of a nickname. I feel like someone could have made that leap independently. I I don't know. But like that quick. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think three days in, you're absolutely right. Like it is, it is a big, it is a quick jump, but it's I think it's funny that that was like, well, I can't, I can't believe he would come up with that on his own. I'm like, I don't know. That's not the crazy stretch. I don't know. I side note, in uh in college, I did also know a guy um in like the the films committee, um, and he had a dog named Clementine. Um, he had a little chihuahua named Clementine, and someone made her a little like a little sweater that looked like an orange, and someone said something about her being like a Clementine orange. And this guy was like, Oh, I didn't realize that a Clementine was a type of orange. And it's like, why did you call her Clementine? It's like because of Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind. He had no idea it was a type of orange. Um, it was just Oh my god. It was just a cute thing. And like she was a very cute dog. Um, but yeah, I just no, that's it's a cute thing. Yeah, but with that like it really with that name, I always think I'm just like Clementine, the dog who was unassociated with the actual fruit.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:36

The dog. I know that's crazy. I thought if he could even go a step further and be like, oh yeah, she's dressed as a tangerine. Oh, that'd be so cute. Yeah, but like, but even as an orange, like this Yeah, he was just like, Oh, that's cute. She's an orange, and it's like, yeah, like a Clementine like the movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:54

Right. That's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Yeah, the fact that that was a realization, it was just like, okay, I thought that was common knowledge. I don't know. Yeah, like what's your what's what was your upbringing? Nobody liked. So back in the real world, Stan and Mary are uh smoking weed on Joel's bed with him. And I couldn't think of the right word. I said profitizing, but that's not right. They are like holding Dr. Howard like up on this pedestal, talking about how amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

Oh, like idolizing kind of idolizing, I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:33

Or like, like, yeah, just like he can he's so amazing and does all this great work. Yeah. Oh my god, like people come in as babies and they're so innocent, and the adults are awful. And I was like, Mary, what is happening?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

Is it proselytizing? Is that it?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:50

Maybe that's it, but I just I didn't know the definition of that word. So I was like, what is it? Yeah, now I have to make it out the act of trying to convert someone from one religion to the other. Belief system or opinion to another.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:02

No, that's probably not it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:03

It involves active persuasion, preaching, or recruiting to make others share your specific point of view or way of life. No, I think idolizing is better. That makes sense. Um, but like treating him like like a prophet, like the next coming. Like he is just didn't, oh, what did she say? It was like things are gonna be like written about him or or something. It's like he's gonna be in a book or he's gonna get awards or like something just crazy. Yeah. And I was like, and I don't know at what point I was like, I don't know, like think she's thinking too much about him.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

Kind of like little, little tiny red flag of hmm. Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:38

I feel like it was very, it was very subtle until it wasn't. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:41

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:42

Yeah, maybe maybe it's in my notes. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:45

Yeah. Cause I think there's a turning point where like a lot of it you can play, like it's just played off as like her being stoned. And then it's like, oh no, that's not just what this is.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:55

Yes. And maybe it was like, I don't want him to see me this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:00

But it's like, that's also your employer, and like you shouldn't be here. So yeah, there's it was a weird line. Yeah, there's a they did a good job. No, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:08

Yeah, you're so right. It's it's so it's not clear until it is a hundred percent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

But like if you were really looking for it, even the way that she acts in the doctor's office, especially if you didn't know she was with Stan, which I assumed they kind of were. Um, it would be like, oh yeah, she's fully like idolizing this doctor. Like like professor, ex-student, like creepy bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:35

Such like a teacher, like weird teacher's pet about.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:39

Yes. Yeah. And so I was like, oh my God. Girl, girl, get help. Get out of there. Girl, what are you doing? So in real life, uh-huh, Patrick goes to see Clementine. She is lost and scared, feels like she is disappearing and getting old, nothing makes sense. I was like, oh, something's happening. Um, and she's like, we have to go to Boston or Montauk. And Patrick is like, oh yeah, you know, something about a weekend. And she's like, no, we have to go now. And he's like, What?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:13

What am I getting into?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:14

Um like what have I done? Then we've got, let's see, Stan and Mary are dancing on Joel's bed, and Mary has somehow lost her pants. And I all caps, what is happening?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

Yeah.

unknown 1:30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:28

Like, he's literally the progression of these two. I'm like, what the fuck is happening?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:33

What yeah. Yeah. What's going on, you guys? Yeah. Like, what? So let's see. Patrick calls. He's like, I'm in a situation, I can't come back. Uh, and while he's on the phone, we see Patrick is going through Joel's old stuff and is using it to help him get with Sash stay with Clementine, was my guess at the time. Uh-huh. Correct. He gives her the gift from Joel that he bought in the previous memory three days before Valentine's Day. It's a necklace. She loves it. In Dream Dreamland, uh, Joel and Clementine are under uh a quilt. And she asks if she's ugly and uh talks about how lonely it was being a kid. And she tells a story about uh her dolls, and then she called the ugly one, she named the ugly one after herself, and thought that if she told that doll to be pretty, then it would be and she would feel pretty. And then Joel tells her she's pretty and uh and they kiss. You hear Joel saying that he wants to keep this memory and tries to like pull at it under the sheets. Yeah. Then we are at uh the frozen Charles again.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:46

This is the poster one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:49

Yeah, I think this is the poster one because it because because of the line, it made more sense, honestly. So this is memory. Uh they lie down and he says, I could die right now. I'm just so happy. Like this is new for him for Joel, exactly where he wants to be. Yeah. Um, but then the memory changes. Now we're lying on a street, and she disappears. So at this point, Joel, Dream Joel, realizes like what's happening, and he's like, I want to st I want to stop this. This is not what I want. And he's like, hmm, gotta figure out how to give them a sign about it. Yeah. So he like tries to like yell in his dream to them. We cut to Stan and Mary dancing with even less clothes in the house. Yeah. As Joel is screaming to be heard within his own mind. And you're like, man, that's that's wild. So back in the dream, Clementine is calling for Joel, and he finds her uh on the ground, and he's like, I'm trying to figure out a way to stop this. So he's like taking Dream Clementine and running through his memories, but she's also seeing them, and she's like getting excited about all the memories that they're in. Yeah. She's like, Oh my god, that's when we're gonna go see my mom and just this, and like, and so um, so she's just like having a ball through the memories, and he's like trying to stop them. Um so Joel tries to find a memory uh with the doctor to like talk to him to stop it. Um so he like yells at the doctor to wake him up, and then Clementine's gone, and Dr. Howard's like, I'm also in your head, Joel. How is it gonna work? I loved that. It was just like, okay. That was pretty good. Like, okay, well, I'm here too, so let's see. Yeah, like we're we're all in this together, Joel. I don't I don't know what you want from dreaming. Let's put our one head together. Yes, our our our brain cells, our singular brain cells together to see. Then in the office, because Patrick was there, we see a fucked up version of Patrick with no face again.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:56

Yeah, no, it's like, no, that's the version where like his old eyes were upside down or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:02

Yeah, that's what it was. That's crazy. Um and then this is when Joel's like, hey, that guy, he's stealing my identity. Oh, then we're in real life. Patrick and Clementine are at the Charles, and he's like quoting Joel's notebook to her. He says, but he says the exact same words and like a sleeper agent, she sits up, the music ticks, and she's like, I want to go home. It's so good. And then she like, yeah, quickly walks away, and Patrick's like, What? What did I do? Oh no, I said the wrong thing. I I love it. That was my favorite. It's just like the sleeper agent like thing, and you're like, oh, this is wrong. You did the wrong thing. This is wrong. Yeah. So Dream Joel and Clementine are in a forest, and he's trying to tell Dream Clementine that she's getting erased. And she's like, Well, let's fix it. Let's how do we do this? Like, you know, wake up. Like, just and he's like, and he gets immediately sarcastic with her. Yeah. I was like, Dream Joel, what are we doing here? Hey man, like, why you literally want to keep the memories of this woman and you're an asshole to her. But then he tries it and can actually see for a second. Yeah. It's like, oh fuck you, Clementine was right, buddy. Yeah, yeah, but yeah. So, which we only hear voices, but it sounds like Stan and Mary are having sex, and we're like, neat. So Joel's like, wait, that worked. I could see, but I couldn't move.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:36

So then Dream Clementine apologizes for erasing him. She's like, I know I'm impulsive. And then Joel says, That's what I love about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

So Dream Clementine says, Well, why don't we hide somewhere? I don't belong. It just waited till morning. Yeah. And I'm like, oh shit, like that's crazy. So then Joel thinks about a childhood memory of like rain and singing row, row your boat. Uh, and then like the memories start like mixing. Yeah. Um, and Joel uh climbs under a table. Oh, that's when it starts like raining in the apartment, right? Yeah, raining in the apartment. And then he likes gets under the table, and then he disappears into a memory of being a child under a table. And then we see Clementine in the previous one, and she's like, wait, I'm supposed to come too. Yeah. But then she appears as like a friend of his mom's.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:30

Or like a babysitter or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:32

So I couldn't tell because yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:34

Yeah, she just gets she gives like a name, but like not like the relation at all. It's just like, oh yeah, it's Mrs. So-and-so. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:41

Yeah. Yeah, because she looks at him and she's like, Who am I? Look what I'm wearing. This is crazy. I love how onboard she is. She's like, Okay, I love this. Yeah. She's like, oh my God, I look crazy. What is this? Um, so but now Joel is like small and like kind of embodying the memory of being a child.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:01

You get some great force perspective stuff of like making him it was pretty silly. Yeah, yeah. Making him seem tiny and the table is big, and it's once again- Yeah, like he's child-sized but adult.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:13

And I was like, this is uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:14

It totally is, but it's like, one, I love I love practical effects. You know that about me. Um, but also I love that with the practical effects, it does lend itself to that, like the weird dream feeling. It's like, okay, well, I was here and I knew it was my school, but it doesn't look anything like my school. It's like the like, okay, but it was me, but I was this age, but I still look like this, and I was tall, but it was like, you know, I'm still five, like those, like that dream squishing together. Like it's so oh yeah, it so well replicates that like sensation. Yeah. That it's I think the practical effects, like it's the only way that you could have done that. It's like it needs to be realistic, but like kind of uncanny valley, like not quite unsettling, but just like not quite right, you know. Almost like cartoony in a way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:07

Cause like, you know, your memories are never as like clear as as the actual thing that happened. So it's like they're under some like weird fog or haze, and so yeah, you they're gonna be like mixed with shit. Yeah. Um, so uh Clementine is like trying to act like she thinks this woman is supposed to act in Joel's memory. Yeah. And I'm like, this is kind of hilarious. Like, why does it matter what she's like in this memory? Like, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:35

Yeah, she's like, Oh, your mom can't catch on.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

Yeah, yeah. Like in this in this dream memory of yours, like she can't know that I'm an imposter. And she's like, I love this kitchen. It's so funny. She's having a block. She's having a great Joel's kind of like getting upset because he's kind of half child, half half adult. Joel.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:56

I'm remembering how he felt in that in then, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:59

Yeah, like she's not paying attention to me. Like, I'm not getting what I want. Like, why won't she look at me? Yeah, and like getting upset. But then, like, she she shows him her crotch to show the same underwear that she was wearing in the previous memory, to be like, hey, it's still me. She's like, I think it's working. And then Joel says, Yeah. And I was like, what's so funny? That was hilarious. Like, this is so crazy. So Mary and Stan are like naked, snuggling on a rocking chair, and I said, Gross. Um, and the machine is going off and stops. Yeah. And Stan's like, oh my God, what it just stopped. Like it's not doing the thing. It's very bad. And Joel is off the brain map. And I said, Oh, he left the memory map, so there's it's not erasing it anymore. Because I didn't really understand like the concept of hiding in another memory, and it's because they're only looking for memories with her in them.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:01

So if she, yeah, I didn't get that. Clementine's smarter than I am. Um so both Stan and Mary don't know what to do and keep repeating it because they're stoned. Yeah. Um, but then Mary's like, we should call Howard. Um and then Stan's like, no, no, okay, we'll call Howard.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:21

And I was I wrote Mary sucks, but she's absolutely right, they need to fucking call Howard.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:27

In that one instance, yes. Um but then Dr. Howard, he's like, you know, what happened to the machine like right before it stopped, and Stan's like, I don't know, I was peeing. And Dr. Howard's like, well, where's Patrick? Patrick's gone. He's gonna be like, Dr. Howard's like, that's coming out. Yeah. Um, at this point, I did not feel the need to mention it then, but it made sense later that uh Dr. Howard's wife is in bed, like looking at what he's doing because he's writing down an address and going there. And I was like, I did not even make a note of that until I saw her later and I was like, I should have written it down. So she is around. Um, let's see. So Stan is cleaning the apartment, tells Mary, like, you gotta leave. And then she's like, no. But also, I'm so stoned and I don't want Howard to see me.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:19

Tells her to help to stop being high in the mirror.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:24

Yes. But she's also like eating something, and she's like, I'm not leaving. Oh, and just still wearing a blanket. Like, I'm not leaving. He's like, oh my gosh. Just you can't be here. Back in our dream. I love how Clementine is calling him baby Joel. He's like really upset. She's like trying to fix it. Uh, she gets under the table with him and tells him, like, you know, you'll wake up and then you'll come and find me and tell me everything, and we'll start all over. And then Joel's like, Well, you're dating someone else, and and uh, and then I think, doesn't she say, like, well, is he cute? Yeah. Um, so uh Patrick and I said Patrick and real Clementine are driving. Uh Clementine is like freaking out. Uh Patrick is like just complimenting her. And uh he says the word nice and she just like scream at him. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, this is like full-born identity shit. Or like where she's just like, it's triggering stuff. It's like, I don't know why, but that was not the thing to say. That was not the thing to say, yeah. Um, so let's see, Stan and Mary have cleaned up, uh, but she's still super stoned. Dr. Howard's here. And he looks at Mary and he's like, Why are you here? And she's like, Oh, I want to understand all the things, and then just like kind of falls over her words. I feel like he's suspicious of them immediately. Oh, for sure. Okay. I was like, Am I crazy? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:01

Um so because I think if it was nothing, Stan would have said, Oh, yeah, Mary's here too. Like, if it was nothing, it would have been like, hey, like this is it. The information's like, well, why why didn't you volunteer that?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

What happened? Yeah, why why are you here?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:15

Why is that a surprise? I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:18

So Howard's at the the computer and he's like, okay, let's go through the entire memory of um of like that we're currently in right now. And uh it's of Joel being bathed in the sand. Yeah. Uh but dream Clementine is there too. And she's like, I've never seen you happier. Um, and Joel's mom is singing uh the Clementine song. Um and so we come back to Howard and he's like, How did we get here? Like, what is what happened? It's crazy. Um, but he clicks something, and then both Clementine and Joel are pulled like into the water, like trying to like suck them out of his memory. Um so then real Joel's eyes open up, and Howard's like, oh my god, bad, bad, bad. Um and like we see all three of them like looking at Joel, and it's fuzzy, but he can still see them. And then Howard like gives him some sort of like shot or something or like him back to sleep. But we see Joel's face and he has like a tear, but he can't do anything. Um so then Joel wakes up in a new memory with uh dream clementine, and he's just like all wet from the water, but we're we're back in the order. Um they're at a uh Joel and Mary. That's not right. Uh I think I think it's Clementine. So Joel and Clementine are at they're at the drive-thru movie. Right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:08

They're outside the fence of the drive-in movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:11

Yes, making up the movie because they can't hear with the speakers and it's really silly. And then uh Clementine disappears, and you see Stan outside, like, you know, basically going like delete.

unknown 1:45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:25

But Joel is trying to fight it and tries to uh run away from this one. So he appears at the doctor's again, but everything's hella weird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:39

Like no one has faces at that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:41

Yes, yeah. So he he's in a memory that was already erased. So it's fuzzy and the people don't have real faces. I said in all caps, I hate it. Like he has some sort of res uh I think Howard's like he has some sort of like resistance to this, but he's back on track. Like this was a memory that was in the map before, and we're back there. So I don't remember where we are, but Dream Clementine is like, I'm tired of running. Find a deep, deep one. And she said, hide in your humiliation.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:12

And so Joel's like, All right, got it. I'll try and find a new one. Oh, and this is when Howard's about to leave. Uh, and then Stan loses him again. He's like, What how did this happen? So the new memory is Joel masturbating two pictures he drew and his mom showing up, and Clementine starts laughing at him. Oh my god. And she's like, I'm so sorry, but you know, this is hilarious. And then uh they wake up on the frozen beach and she's like, Yay! And Joel's like, no, not yay! We shouldn't be here. He's got another memory uh where kids are bullying him, and this time he's a kid. Uh well, okay, sometimes he's a kid. Right now he's a kid. Uh, they're bullying him into hitting. Is the bird alive or is the bird? I don't, I don't know. It's a bird, a bird body uh with a hammer. Yeah. The little girl in the memory is now Clementine and she takes him away. In this, they switch back and forth between being the kids and the adult versions. Clementine takes him away from the other kids. And then they're like playing pretend that he's killing her with a pillow and she's dead. And I said, What is this a reference to? But then, like, the mom sees him, they're like, We're just playing. I'm dead. I'm dead. And I was like, What is this? So silly. So then the house of the moms in disappears, and Dr. Howard has found Joel again in his mind. And I said, Okay, this is a memory of Dream Clementine trying to suffocate Joel and he pretends to die. So then uh let's see, then that one's gone. Joel and Clementine are running on a frozen beach and come upon their house, quote, and I'm like, oh, this is the house that Joel was looking at from the beginning. So they're like fighting in the snow. She wants to go to the house, and he's like, We have to go somewhere else. Like, this is a memory we have to leave. Uh, and then she's gone. In the real world, uh, we've got Mary complimenting Howard, like, oh, I like watching you work. And I mean, I think if it wasn't obvious before, I think it, you know, it gets that way now.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:39

This is where it starts to tip over from like, oh, like, are you just like being stoned and weird, or are is this a something? And it's like, this is where it tips.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:50

Yeah, is there something something underlying here? Yeah. Because Stan's like, I'm gonna like Howard's at the computer, I'm gonna go and get some air or whatever. So then Mary tells Howard the quote that she said earlier, and he knew it already because he's a doctor. Because he's a grown man. Yeah. She's like, Oh, of course I couldn't teach you something, something. And she's like, Oh, my book has another quote from well, she says Pope Alexander, but it's Alexander Pope because she's dumb. I wrote it down. I don't get it. It says, How happy is the blameless vestal's lot, the world forgetting by the world forgot, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, each prayer accepted and each wish resigned.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:39

I think it's base basically like forgetting and not remembering and just like wiping clean a slate, like that's like bliss and happiness. Like that's like the like a like sort of ideal being is like free from you know, free from memory, but also free from like regret.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:00

Oh, okay. Because I wasn't gonna write it down until it said the thing, and I was like, I have to rewind.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:07

Um I so I couldn't find what it actually was, but apparently, like in some interview, um, the director said that the original title of this movie was like 18 words long. I don't know what it was, I can't find it. But he was like, Yeah, uh, it was crazy long. But it was in like an article from you know 2004 where it's like this is a really long title, and it's like could have been worse.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:30

But oh my gosh, that's crazy. Yeah. Okay, so during this quote, we are seeing a memory of uh Times Square with circus elephants way back when that was chill. Clementine and Joel are having a great time, and then Joel loses her again. She's gone. Back in the real world, Mary gets up, sits right next to Howard, and tells him how much she admires him, then kisses him, then says she's loved him for a long time, and then it all caps, then immediately regrets it. What is this story? All these people are awful. Yeah. And I was like, Correct. What? Yeah, what? So, so Howard is like, you know, I have a wife and kids. We can't do this, and then they kiss again. No, which I did not expect. I was like, yeah, obviously, like this is like, you know, the awkward, oh my god, my student fell in love with me and I'm the professor. But like, yeah, I can't because I'm old and I'm married, and like, don't. But then nope, yeah, it happens anyway, and then it stands outside, fucking sees it in order. Because the windows are open and the lights are on. Why, why then?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:49

And then a car pulls up, and I don't know who I thought it was gonna be, but not Howard's wife getting out.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:56

I think I kind of assumed it was gonna be either Patrick or Clementine, and I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:01

Yeah, yeah. I think I think I thought it was gonna be Clementine with Patrick. Yeah, and then they were gonna show up and it was gonna be like a weird thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:09

Um, but no, it's Howard's wife. Secret third option. Stan's like, yeah, right. Stan's like, hey, and then to cover for them, honks the horn so loud that they're alerted, and they like pull away from each other. The wife looks unsurprised and then goes over and like hit Stan. Yeah, like, what the fuck, man? Thanks for the heads up. So her name is Hollis. Hollis starts to like drive away, and Howard's like running out, and he's like, I did come here for work. This is what it was originally. Don't, you know, get it twisted. Mary runs out. Yeah. And she's like, No, it's all me. I'm a stupid girl with a stupid crush. And I basically forced Howard, and then Hollis gets like kind of superior, and she's like, Oh, you know, like tell her the truth, basically. And then Howard says nothing, and Mary doesn't know anything. And so Hollis says, You can have him, you already have, and then drives away. Yeah. And I said, What? And then Mary also says, What? Yeah, and then Howard's like, Yeah, we have a history, and then you wanted the procedure to move past it all. But then he like kind of trails off and doesn't explain more. And he's like, I gotta finish this. It's almost sun up.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:40

We can talk about this later.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:41

And then says, Yeah, we'll talk later, okay? Yeah. And then I was questioning if Stan knew, um, because he's outside, sees all of this, and then offers to give Mary a lift and she walks away. So back in our dream world, Joel is visiting Clementine at work. Um, she says that he ran away from her. And uh he says that he wanted to see her and take her out. Clementine's like, oh, you know, like something about being married, and he's like, I'm not married. And then Clementine says she is high maintenance, uh basically insinuating that, like, you know, I'm not gonna be your side piece. I'm not gonna like if this is this is the I'm high maintenance, like you can't handle me and another woman. It needs to be just me. And she says, I'm just a fucked up girl who's looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:40

So that is the second half of this full line because specifically she starts out with, too many guys think I'm a concept, or I complete them, or I'm gonna make them alive.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:52

Right. That's true. Yeah. I just like the other part.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:56

No, they're and they're both real good, but specifically that like too many guys think I'm it's like I'm gonna do this. It's like, no, I'm my own person.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:05

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, for whatever reason, the second half was what resonated more with me. And I was like, I feel that. Like I'm not 20 anymore, but it's like I get that. I'm working on my own shit. Like everybody, like, just you know, I can work with you, but like, don't don't put that on me.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:22

I think it like, I mean, especially like, you know, getting out of, you know, like being married and not like, you know, dating anymore. Like, I feel like it's something that like still carries over into like, you know, friendships and other relationships. It's just like it's like I need to, you know, maintain my own, you know, life and peace of mind and well-being. It's like I can help you support you, but like it's like I this is not my responsibility. It's like I'm my own responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:51

Yeah. And it's like I'm still trying to figure out myself and like be true to myself. Like I I can't handle yours as well. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:58

Yeah, it's like I can help you, but I'm not, I can't do it for you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:02

And then they they break the memory, and Joel says, you know, I thought you were going to save my life. Yeah. And he says he thinks it would be different if they tried again. Uh Clementine tells him to remember her, try your best, maybe they can. And then she disappears.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:19

Do you notice in all of like in the Barnes and Noble, like all of the books are going blank as well? Like all of the spines are just blank by the end of that scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:29

Oh no, I didn't notice that. Let's see, we're in the real world. Mary is tearing up that office looking for the records of her own.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:37

I wrote burn it down, Mary.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:40

She will, uh, metaphorically speaking. So hers is from October of 2002. There is a cassette that she plays. Poor Mary, you know, fantasized about him, calls him Howie, uh, and then on the tape, like, you know, says that she can't do it. Like, she doesn't want to go through with it. And Howard's like, remember, we talked about it. It's for the best. Back in Dream World, Joel is going to the party with Rob and Carrie, and I was like, the first memory. And then I also said, What an awful marriage. God, they suck so much. No wonder Joel has terrible expectations of a relationship because they're awful. He's never had a good relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:19

Yeah, he he's he doesn't have a good example. He doesn't have a bar to attract to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:26

So I think we're we're hearing the narration. Joel saying uh, you know, he was drawn to her even then, just her back in her orange sweatshirt and green hair. He's commenting on it while he's in it. So like sometimes he'll be saying the memory, and sometimes he'll be talking about the breaking his own fourth wall. So Clementine introduces herself and again, you know, doesn't want jokes. And Joel brings up the song and Huckleberry Hound. And that's when I said, What is that? Uh so I said, in this version of himself, he does know it. But then he says, I think your name is magical. Dream Clementine breaks the fourth wall and says, you know, like this is it. Like it's gonna be gone soon. What do we do? And then they just decide to enjoy it instead. They're walking by the ocean. She talks about moving into this neighborhood. We go back to the same beach house. Joel's like, someone obviously live. Oh, oh, they're talking about his relationship. Joel says he lives with someone. She asks, male or female, and I said, Look how progressive she is. Look at her. Because Joel gets all defensive, and I was like, chill the beans, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:42

She's like, just want to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree. I'm like, legit. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:47

Like, reasonable question. So Clementine tries to get into the house and eventually finds a window and gets in. She lets Joel in. She's like, it's our house just for the night of David and Ruth Laskin. Which one do you want to be? I'm partial to Ruth, but you know. So Clementine finds wine, and Joel's like super nervous. Outside, the house starts to kind of like shake and crumble, and part of it disappears. Clementine's going upstairs to try and find a bed, and Joel like worries about missing his ride. Yeah. And so then Clementine's like, then go. Like, so go. Like you can, you know. So he does. And then Dream Clementine again breaks the fourth wall and says, I wish you had stayed. And Joel says, Yeah. He has a lot of regrets. And he said he felt like a scared little kid. And I said, you know, the ocean waves are coming in. Joel tells Clementine that he went back to the bonfire to outrun the humiliation. And the SO Go had so much disdain that he left. Clementine apologizes. Then he goes to leave again. And Clementine calls him back and says, What if you stayed? Joel says, You know, I already walked out the door. You know, there's no other memory. Uh, so she wants to, you know, say, stay and make make up a real like a goodbye, a real one. The house is like crumbling down. She goes in to kiss him. And I don't know if we hear it or she also says, Meet me in Montauk. I think she says it. I tell because it was fuzzy, so I couldn't tell if her mouth was moving or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:28

I loved this scene. I think it's so beautiful. Like just like especially like as over the last however many years, seeing so many houses get destroyed by the ocean and seeing them fall into the ocean, like, you know, not far from us, like the metaphor for like watching that, you know, get swept away and crumble and fall apart, like as a metaphor for a relationship that is falling apart. It's like this was supposed to, this was supposed to like contain everything and protect you. And it's just f like like literally and and you know, metaphorically falling apart. Like it's just, it's so good. It's a really good scene. I like it a lot. I don't, I didn't even remember this scene. I remembered so many other random bits and pieces from this. I don't know what it was that didn't stick with me about this scene, but it's I love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:24

I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And I mean this and uh a little bit before that, when it's like there you you pick up on the rhythm of within the dream of okay, this is the memory, this is outside the memory. And so like it got a lot easier watching it. And so I think this is what you're talking about of how it it went quicker once you were able to pick up the pattern and the language of each each version of them going through the memory, but also talking about it at the same time. Like two two different conversations, basically. Yeah, definitely. You know, it's like when you text someone and then you have a different conversation in parentheses, it's totally different from the first one. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:08

Yeah, it's commentary.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:10

Yeah. So uh Joel is in the car on the way home, but on the outside, he's like whizzing by all the old memories, but then he's seeing them without Clementine. Uh, but in the car, Robin Carey are like asking Joel about Clementine, and he says, Oh, she was just a girl. So back in the real world, the machine beeps. Howard's like, yay, we're done. Um, Stan takes the machine off. Howard's like calling someone. Stan wipes the dots off, and I said, Aha. Um Stan is like, oh, I gotta, you know, I gotta take the van back to the office. Howard's like, thanks, and then says, you know, we'll talk later. And I'm like, God, that's your line, isn't it, dude? Like, you know, after everything that happened, that's all we're saying is we'll talk later. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:02

Yeah, we're gonna avoid every problem.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:04

Yes. We see Joel as he wakes up to the car door closing and a car driving away. And I said the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:11

Yeah, full circle.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:13

Yeah, he wakes up confused. He seems confused about the pajamas and like what's in his bed because he pulls the sheet fully off, like he was looking for something, it felt like.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:23

I think it's also that he like he fell asleep, he like passed out on the floor. So it's like, yeah, I'm in bed. What happened?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:31

Yeah, how yeah. Uh he goes outside, sees the car damage, still mad. We cut to Mary uh with a box of her stuff leaving the office. Stan sees her, and uh he's like, I I didn't know like this happened. Um, I didn't do the erasing, and the only time I suspected it was like one time. But then after that, I thought I was imagining things. Let's see, we see Joel running to catch his train to Montauk.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:00

Real quick, as we finish up with that scene with Mary, um, she puts the stuff like she puts the box in the trunk of her car. Yeah, that was my next note. Sorry, go ahead. You're fine. We cut we cut back and forth. Oh, I forgot we cut back and forth. My note did not.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:14

That's okay. No, yeah, we uh yeah, we're not we're not done with that. Right. So Stan says that like he really likes her, and uh he gives her a bag, which I'm assuming maybe she left at the house or something like that. I thought so, yeah. So we were really focusing on her car, and I was like, why are we really focusing on Mary's car? And instead of just that one box, she has so many records and cassettes and documents. And then I said, Is it of herself or other people? Because I was worried this had happened multiple times to her. Oh, that would have been so I was like, how many times have we gone through this shit? Luckily it wasn't. Um that would have been horrible.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:56

Yeah, I was I was real concerned for Mary. But don't worry. We uh, but then let's see, Clementine is asleep in the car. We're back to present day, back to where we stopped before opening credits. Clementine is getting her toothbrush and has a voicemail from Patrick. Uh, and she's like rolling her eyes, and I was like, geez. We see Patrick approach Joel in the car, but we don't see that scene again. Clementine gets in the car. Joel says he had a great night. She grabs her mail and opens it. Uh, turns out Mary has sent all the patients a letter with their tapes. So Clementine, I don't know why, but just immediately starts to play the tape. Wild choice. Yeah, and it's about Joel. So as soon as she says the name, they both look at each other because it's like, oh, hang on. So they keep listening to it, and it's super upsetting because this tape is basically just like the shitty end of their relationship. And Joel's like, you're fucking with me. And like she really doesn't protest that much, and he's just like, get out of my car. So uh Clement gets home and Patrick is there, and she screams at him to get away, which like this is the biggest outburst we've seen from her. And she's in her home, like crying and angry. She drives to find Joel, uh, sees the neighbor, and he's like, Hey! And she's like let's her into the building. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So she finds Joel's apartment and hears that his tape is playing, complaining about her. And Joel's like on the ground looking sad. And he somehow found a drawing that he had like missed the day before that's of her.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:47

Yeah, so it's like I think it's like the mattress is like up on like against the wall. Like, I don't know if it was like under the bed or something. Like it was like I think there's one point earlier where he's like, I don't know if he's like trying to figure out like if there's something that he hadn't thrown out, like if there was something that was left. I can't remember. I I wish I'd written it down. I feel like there was one specific point where he was like, like, there's still something. It's like there's something that I didn't that I didn't get rid of.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:19

Oh, when he's grabbing all the stuff. Okay. I mean, it was it was like he was grabbing a lot of stuff. So that makes sense. No, that's crazy. I didn't notice that. Um, so this this is when I said, OMG, stop playing the tape. Because it's like, I I mean, maybe it's me not being able to listen to too many things at once, but it's also bad stuff. So Joel apologizes for yelling because it's like, okay, you clearly have history. Um, Clementine says she really likes him and is sorry that she said all that mean stuff. They listen more, and uh Tape Joel complains about her hair, and real Joel's like, I like your hair. Um they keep listening, and Joel goes to get whiskey, which is low because of fucking Mary. Tape Joel is saying that Clementine thinks having sex with people or the possibility of having sex is the only way to get people to like her. Real Clementine gets defensive, says she doesn't do that. Real Joel says, I don't think that. And that's when in all caps I said, stop the fucking tape.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:24

I the idea of like like at the start of a relationship, like looking at each other and going, that's not true, I don't think that. Like it's it and it and it's crazy thinking about it from like the like the bitter end of a relationship versus that like for that beginning where it's like even if you do believe those things, like you're not gonna say it. It's like this is neither of these are the most honest you're gonna be with each other. Neither of these versions are the real you. Like the first, like on your best behavior version is not it. The end, like bitter, I don't care if I hurt your feelings. Yeah, exactly. It's like neither of these are actually what you think. And it's it's it's wild to have them like contrasted right next to each other at the same time. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:09

Yeah. So again, this is when Clementine said her feelings are hurt because she doesn't do that. And so she decides to go and you know, is confused, understandably confused. Uh Joel stops her in the hallway and just wants her to wait, I guess, to figure stuff out. She says, Okay. Clementine basically repeats herself from her other her her quote, you know, saying she isn't perfect. And Joel, you know, says he doesn't see anything he doesn't like. Clementine says, Well, you will at some point, and then I'll get bored and feel trapped. And Joel says, Okay. And then Clementine says, Okay. And then they both laugh. And like, I feel like one of them was at least close to crying, because I was like, This is insane. And then we cut to them, I don't know if it's a dream or not, uh, running around on this snowy beach, but the scene repeats and repeats until fading away like it did in the dream. I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:15

I don't know. I don't have a good answer. Well, people haven't thought about this. I'm sure they I'm sure people have. I haven't. I don't know. Oh, I just there was no like Yeah, not like this is this is what you know, this last scene. I think it's just like the idea of like, you know, just whatever whatever the past version of their relationship was just fading away. Like, and just they're getting and they're getting a fresh start. Like it's like, you know, yeah, they might make the same mistakes, but they get to try it again.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:46

That's good, because I was like, oh no, is this all a dream and we're deleting it again?

SPEAKER_00 2:10:50

Yes, it's 50 years in the future and they're erasing each other again. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:53

Wow. Maybe. And that's the end. Yeah. We did it. Oh crazy movie.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:02

Yeah. It's a lot. I forgot at first that at the beginning they both had forgotten each other. I thought it was one or the other at first. And I thought that I couldn't remember. And so I thought for a bit that she still remembered, but he didn't. And I was just like, Yeah, and I was just like, this kind of fucked up of her. And then I was like, no, this is no, I'm wrong. Just it's wait, hold on. Exactly. I was just like, that would be crazy fucked up. And I'm like, no, it's fine. It's okay. Yeah, just like going to someone who like knew no forgot you. It's just like, I feel like I know you. And it's like, that's awful. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:42

That's so bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:43

But um, but yeah, I I didn't remember so much about this movie, and I really I really enjoyed rewatching it. I liked it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:53

Yeah, that's a good movie.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:54

And like on some levels, not as sad as I thought it was gonna be. It's exactly like I said. I think it's sad if you're not in a good relationship, or if you are like coming out of a bad relationship, or if you were like struggling with relationship things. Like it really is like from someone in a functional, happy relationship, I'm just like, yeah, it's not feel good necessarily. Like it does, it does end hopefully, but it's like, I don't know, like it's not, it's not as crushing, I think, as it was. Like, I I don't know, maybe I don't have, you know, as many giant regrets and relationships as I as I did when I was, you know, 20 and worldly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:36

Whatever. Yeah, right. I knew everything that I wanted at 20. Yeah. And I I also find that like if it's something, and maybe this is just me, if it's something that hits close to home that you're watching, it can feel a sort of catharsis in a way. Yeah. That like this didn't feel like to me at all. It was like I am, I am third party watching this from far away. This is nothing like my life.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:04

It it's like this is a beautiful story that you're telling me, and not, oh God, I didn't realize that other people felt like this too. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:13

Yeah, yeah. Or like, oh, I see like this makes so much sense. I see this in my life. I I relate to this. It's like, man, this is crazy. And so many of these people are bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:26

Yeah, I forgot how much everyone in this movie sucks, especially outside of outside of Joel and Clementine. I forgot how much everyone sucks.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:35

And I mean, really, like between the two of them, I think I'm on the side of Clementine versus Joel. Yeah. Because she she knows more about herself and is honest with herself more than he is.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:48

A hundred percent. And I think that's it. Like it's however much Joel thinks he knows about Clementine, Clementine knows herself well.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:57

Yeah. And she's comfortable with herself.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:00

Yeah. And Joel needs to get on board. Joel needs to catch up and maybe figure himself out. And maybe they go to couples therapy.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:07

Right. And maybe this time he lets that comfort, you know, fix the communication and they they grow together and not apart. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:20

Oh yeah. Well, new person goes first. How would you like to rate this, Emily? Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:25

I like this.

unknown 2:14:26

Yay.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:27

And I'm feeling weird about it because I thought I wasn't going to.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:30

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:31

But like, I mean, literally, parts of this movie were funny. And I I fully this is beyond expectations of what I thought this movie was gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:41

Did you think you were gonna be like more uncomfortable the whole time? I thought I was gonna be sad.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:47

I literally just thought I was like, I'm gonna watch a sad movie about a relationship. Maybe somebody will die. I don't know. And I was like really prepared for that and not like sci-fi and some comedy and just bizarro stuff. That was not what I was reading.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:06

That's fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:08

Successfully subverted some expectations. I'm okay with that. Like I'm I'm totally fine with that. So let's see. I would give this uh oh, I gotta think of a thing. Do, do, do, do, do. Oh, I got it. Eight out of ten cassettes. Ooh, that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:26

Yeah, I like it. I'm so glad. I love that. Um, I think, I think I'm with you. I'm gonna give it eight out of ten potato mannequins.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:38

Oh my god. They were very cute.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:41

I like the little potatoes.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:42

Why did we not focus on those more? Like, I wanted to know more about the potato mannequins.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:45

No, like I feel like in a different movie, she would have gone through and explained what the deal with each one of them was. It's like, well, this one's this, and this one's Marilyn Monroe, and this is this. They had points to them. Yeah. Well, she made little versions of them too, which was very cute. I loved that. Yes, it's so cute. Yeah. This is fun. Okay, good. I'm so glad. I'm I'm glad it wasn't as sad as I remembered either. Honestly, I was I went in. I was like, what is this movie? And that's the thing. I think, honestly, see if he wants to watch it again. Or be like, what were you doing in your life when you're talking about it? Exactly. It's like, hey, who were you dating? How was it going? Bad? There's your answer. What a weird question from my husband. I mean, hey.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:33

Totally valid with this movie, honestly. It's like, well, you didn't end up with them, so clearly it wasn't awesome.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:39

Yeah, I mean, obviously. Yeah. Listeners, if you if you watch this movie at a specific point in one of your past relationships, let us know. It feels like this is the first time I've really thought about this movie in what, 20 years, maybe? Um, so having this realization, I would love to know if it's just me or if it's or if other people realize this watching it back then and watching it again.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:02

Let us know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Please. I I since I only have the one experience, I would love to know.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:09

Yeah. Give us some counterpoints. Um, but yeah, so when so when you are looking into uh where to let us know how you felt in that past relationship back in 2004 when you watched this movie, or maybe later, um, you can find us on several social media platforms. We're our sister CinemaSwap on Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Letterboxed.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:31

And we want to thank Jenny Crowley for our artwork, Nick Heredia for our theme music, and we want to thank you all so much for listening. Thanks, guys. We'll see you as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:43

We'll see you at the driver movie, but outside of the fence, so we'll make up all the voices ourselves. Bye. We're great at work.